(urth) Seawrack and the Mother
David Stockhoff
dstockhoff at verizon.net
Thu Oct 4 06:12:13 PDT 2012
That's very interesting. I've read very little Milton outside PL, so I
can't follow you too far. But you almost seem to be saying that
Severian's "magic" is a /moral /or spiritual magic, not a physical or
simply supernatural one---however one might characterize magic as we
usually see it portrayed.
On 10/4/2012 12:08 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:
> Yeah, it's a common trope, but it helps me grind my Milton/Wolfe
> axe...at least in my head.
>
> As for the higher/lower, Wizard Knight is the main idea. But
> Briah/Yesod fit something along those lines. Honestly, it's Milton's
> monism that makes me find the most compelling connection to Wolfe.
> I've always wondered if there's a "theory" of
> fantasy/magic/supernatural/spiritual in Wolfe that is something like
> the monism Milton outlines in _Christian Doctrine_. The way Milton
> describes it, the moral character of a material body affects its
> spiritual capacity, which is an interesting way to explain the odd
> supernaturalism of Severian, say, or the Claw, which are "magical" but
> only in ambiguous ways.
>
> That's the kernel, at least. I haven't actually thought it through.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
> *To:* The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 2, 2012 1:17 PM
> *Subject:* Re: (urth) Seawrack and the Mother
>
> Spirit (mind) is usually said to animate or organize matter (body).
> This makes spirit active (light) and matter passive (dark), which
> usually translates to male and female principles, for obvious reasons
> involving agriculture as well as animal husbandry, never mind the
> convenience of having both a sun and a moon to illustrate them. So the
> two sexes are very useful as concepts for ordering the universe. (You
> have to wonder how a sentient species without sexes would view the
> universe. Again, I can only think of the Elder Ones . . . ugh.)
>
> Wolfe has a lot of beings inhabiting other bodies. But he resists the
> archaic, sexist implications, in that his "vessels" are always full
> and complete characters, though he does tend to make the genders of
> rider and mount match---not always.
>
> I can't think of any other particular examples of "above" organizing
> "below," except perhaps in Wizard/Knight.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com>
> *To:* The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 2, 2012 10:45 AM
> *Subject:* Re: (urth) Seawrack and the Mother
>
> Speaking of Milton, in the creation story of PL,
> chaos/matter/nature are always feminine. God implants order into
> the "womb of nature" as he says. It's a matter more of imagery
> rather than direct characterization, but still interesting.
>
> Don't know how/if that applies to Wolfe. I've always seen
> interesting analogies between Milton and Wolfe (levels of
> spirituality/sacredness, matter/spirit monism) but the theologies
> shouldn't map onto each other in the end for a variety of reasons.
>
> On Sep 30, 2012, at 12:12 PM, David Stockhoff
> <dstockhoff at verizon.net <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 9/30/2012 4:27 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:
> >> On 9/23/2012 5:27 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:
> >>
> >>> It doesn't quite fit. I meant (1) two sexes (a) separate or (b)
> >>> combined, or (2) no sexes, but also pointing out that a single
> male or
> >>> female seeder/birther/creator isn't really any of those. That
> is, you
> >>> can't have only one sex. Incest is a bit like two-housed
> >>> hermaphroditism, from this perspective.
> >>
> >>
> >> I think you can have a single sexed creator if the created is
> the other sex.
> >>
> > How would that work, exactly?
> >
> > ---If a female creator spawned (through parthenogenesis?) a male
> creation?
> >
> > ---Or if a female creation developed from a sperm cell?
> >
> > Parent-offspring incest would then follow. It's conceivable, but
> sounds deliberately perverse, like something Lovecraftian or
> Milton's Satan.
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