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That's very interesting. I've read very little Milton outside PL, so
I can't follow you too far. But you almost seem to be saying that
Severian's "magic" is a <i>moral </i>or spiritual magic, not a
physical or simply supernatural one---however one might characterize
magic as we usually see it portrayed.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/4/2012 12:08 AM, Craig Brewer
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1349323722.26855.YahooMailNeo@web162805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times
new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">
<div><span>Yeah, it's a common trope, but it helps me grind my
Milton/Wolfe axe...at least in my head.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
times new roman,new york,times,serif; background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
times new roman,new york,times,serif; background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>As for the
higher/lower, Wizard Knight is the main idea. But
Briah/Yesod fit something along those lines. Honestly, it's
Milton's monism that makes me find the most compelling
connection to Wolfe. I've always wondered if there's a
"theory" of fantasy/magic/supernatural/spiritual in Wolfe
that is something like the monism Milton outlines in
_Christian Doctrine_. The way Milton describes it, the moral
character of a material body affects its spiritual capacity,
which is an interesting way to explain the odd
supernaturalism of Severian, say, or the Claw, which are
"magical" but only in ambiguous ways.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
times new roman,new york,times,serif; background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family:
times new roman,new york,times,serif; background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;"><span>That's the kernel, at
least. I haven't actually thought it through.<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
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serif; font-size: 12pt;">
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serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2">
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
DAVID STOCKHOFF <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net"><dstockhoff@verizon.net></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> The
Urth Mailing List <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net"><urth@lists.urth.net></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, October 2, 2012 1:17 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: (urth) Seawrack and the Mother<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
<div id="yiv143777722">
<div>
<div
style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:arial,
helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">
<div><span>Spirit (mind) is usually said to animate or
organize matter (body). This makes spirit active
(light) and matter passive (dark), which usually
translates to male and female principles, for
obvious reasons involving agriculture as well as
animal husbandry, never mind the convenience of
having both a sun and a moon to illustrate them.
So the two sexes are very useful as concepts for
ordering the universe. (You have to wonder how a
sentient species without sexes would view the
universe. Again, I can only think of the Elder
Ones . . . ugh.)<br>
</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial, helvetica,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial, helvetica,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>Wolfe
has a lot of beings inhabiting other bodies. But
he resists the archaic, sexist implications, in
that his "vessels" are always full and complete
characters, though he does tend to make the
genders of rider and mount match---not always.</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial, helvetica,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0,
0);font-size:13.3333px;font-family:arial, helvetica,
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span>I
can't think of any other particular examples of
"above" organizing "below," except perhaps in
Wizard/Knight.<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
<blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16,
255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px;">
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sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">
<div style="font-family:times new roman, new
york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2">
<hr size="1"> <b><span
style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
Craig Brewer <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cnbrewer@yahoo.com"><cnbrewer@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b>
The Urth Mailing List
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:urth@lists.urth.net"><urth@lists.urth.net></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, October 2, 2012 10:45 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: (urth) Seawrack and the Mother<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
Speaking of Milton, in the creation story of
PL, chaos/matter/nature are always feminine.
God implants order into the "womb of nature"
as he says. It's a matter more of imagery
rather than direct characterization, but still
interesting.<br>
<br>
Don't know how/if that applies to Wolfe. I've
always seen interesting analogies between
Milton and Wolfe (levels of
spirituality/sacredness, matter/spirit monism)
but the theologies shouldn't map onto each
other in the end for a variety of reasons.<br>
<br>
On Sep 30, 2012, at 12:12 PM, David Stockhoff
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
ymailto="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> <br>
> On 9/30/2012 4:27 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:<br>
>> On 9/23/2012 5:27 PM, David Stockhoff
wrote:<br>
>> <br>
>>> It doesn't quite fit. I meant (1)
two sexes (a) separate or (b)<br>
>>> combined, or (2) no sexes, but
also pointing out that a single male or<br>
>>> female seeder/birther/creator
isn't really any of those. That is, you<br>
>>> can't have only one sex. Incest
is a bit like two-housed<br>
>>> hermaphroditism, from this
perspective.<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> I think you can have a single sexed
creator if the created is the other sex.<br>
>> <br>
> How would that work, exactly?<br>
> <br>
> ---If a female creator spawned (through
parthenogenesis?) a male creation?<br>
> <br>
> ---Or if a female creation developed from
a sperm cell?<br>
> <br>
> Parent-offspring incest would then
follow. It's conceivable, but sounds
deliberately perverse, like something
Lovecraftian or Milton's Satan.<br>
>
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