(urth) The Wizard

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes danldo at gmail.com
Thu Mar 8 13:22:01 PST 2012 

But pagan gods commonly drink the blood of their worshippers...

On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Antonin Scriabin
<kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>wrote:

> I think I will have to reread the portion where Able drinks the Aelf
> blood; it is interesting that it works "both ways", and if it is a
> perversion for humans to worship the Aelf since they are from a higher
> world, it seems like it would also be a perversion of some kind for them to
> drink Aelf blood (continuing this thought that blood drinking = blood
> sacrifice).  It makes sense for the blood of the gods (humans) to having
> healing and salvific powers for their worshipers (Aelf) but not the other
> way around.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> You're right, and again Able gives his blood voluntarily, making it
>> somehow salvific.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Antonin Scriabin <
>> kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given
>>> voluntarily."
>>>
>>> Interesting point.  I also seem to remember Baki being healed in *The
>>> Wizard* (she had broken legs) was the result of drinking blood.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given
>>>> voluntarily.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <
>>>> kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is
>>>>> brought in right at the end"
>>>>>
>>>>> Is the portion you had in mind when Desiri drinks Able's blood until
>>>>> she becomes "real"?  The drinking of blood for power / healing /
>>>>> transformation showed up several times earlier, I remember.  When Able is
>>>>> wounded in *The Knight* he drinks either Uri or Baki's (I don't
>>>>> remember which) blood to become healed.  This sort of "blood sacrifice"
>>>>> that pops up a few times is less a form of thanksgiving and more of a pagan
>>>>> transference of power; blood as a source of rejuvenation is a particularly
>>>>> common theme in pre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures.  The fact that the
>>>>> blood of *several* characters seems to have some type of inherent
>>>>> power (the Ael and Able) strikes me as another parallel to Aztec religions
>>>>> (where both human and divine blood has power when offered as a sacrifice).
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Petersen <
>>>>> danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks
>>>>>> directly about some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction.
>>>>>>  The interview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or you can go straight to the religion bit here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent
>>>>>> from the lower worlds and that "he" struck me as a remarkably deist being,
>>>>>> especially considering how active the "gods" of other realms interact with
>>>>>> the worlds below them.  It seems that it is easy to go a world "up" or
>>>>>> "down", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a "two-world jump" is
>>>>>> even impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the
>>>>>> world second from the top.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, I noticed this too.  In that sense, this work seemed more
>>>>>> nearly Gnostic than any other.  I wondered if he was being even more
>>>>>> obliquely ironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us
>>>>>> distant from the Most High).  But some have pointed out that potentially
>>>>>> eucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian
>>>>>> redemption is hinted at.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -DOJP
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin <
>>>>>> kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Haha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. [?] Can anyone link to an
>>>>>>> interview(s) in which Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his
>>>>>>> writing?  I have read a fair number of his interviews but they were mostly
>>>>>>> focused on his philosophies of writing, etc.  Also, if I can bring it back
>>>>>>> to *The Wizard* for a minute, I would just point out that the Most
>>>>>>> High God seems quite absent from the lower worlds and that "he" struck me
>>>>>>> as a remarkably deist being, especially considering how active the "gods"
>>>>>>> of other realms interact with the worlds below them.  It seems that it is
>>>>>>> easy to go a world "up" or "down", but going farther than that is rarer
>>>>>>> (perhaps a "two-world jump" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High
>>>>>>> God's influence is mainly in the world second from the top.  Can anyone
>>>>>>> refresh my memory of where Parka is from?  Was she an entity of Elysion, or
>>>>>>> Kleos?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <
>>>>>>> danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT
>>>>>>>> could not possibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged)
>>>>>>>> doctrine of God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the
>>>>>>>> Canaanites.  Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a
>>>>>>>> doctrine of a merciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from
>>>>>>>> themes in Genesis and Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost'
>>>>>>>> in idolatry and then the Israelites in slavery.  Sure, Wolfe needs the NT
>>>>>>>> development of the doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable
>>>>>>>> divine revelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people
>>>>>>>> out of idolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah.
>>>>>>>>  Thus, the God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is
>>>>>>>> progressively revealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox
>>>>>>>> Christian understanding.)  That's my thesis.  Seeing the God of the OT
>>>>>>>> merely as a genocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's
>>>>>>>> fiction, I think.  Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding.  I, at least,
>>>>>>>> do not think he is.  (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -DOJP
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2012/3/8 António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and
>>>>>>>>>> whatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of
>>>>>>>>>> texts (...)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go
>>>>>>>>> around all the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate
>>>>>>>>> the Canaanites.
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>
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-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
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