(urth) The Wizard

Thu Mar 8 13:20:56 PST 2012

I think I will have to reread the portion where Able drinks the Aelf blood;
it is interesting that it works "both ways", and if it is a perversion for
humans to worship the Aelf since they are from a higher world, it seems
like it would also be a perversion of some kind for them to drink Aelf
blood (continuing this thought that blood drinking = blood sacrifice).  It
makes sense for the blood of the gods (humans) to having healing and
salvific powers for their worshipers (Aelf) but not the other way around.

On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> wrote:

> You're right, and again Able gives his blood voluntarily, making it
> somehow salvific.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> "But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given
>> voluntarily."
>>
>> Interesting point.  I also seem to remember Baki being healed in *The
>> Wizard* (she had broken legs) was the result of drinking blood.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given
>>> voluntarily.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <
>>> kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is
>>>> brought in right at the end"
>>>>
>>>> Is the portion you had in mind when Desiri drinks Able's blood until
>>>> she becomes "real"?  The drinking of blood for power / healing /
>>>> transformation showed up several times earlier, I remember.  When Able is
>>>> wounded in *The Knight* he drinks either Uri or Baki's (I don't
>>>> remember which) blood to become healed.  This sort of "blood sacrifice"
>>>> that pops up a few times is less a form of thanksgiving and more of a pagan
>>>> transference of power; blood as a source of rejuvenation is a particularly
>>>> common theme in pre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures.  The fact that the
>>>> blood of *several* characters seems to have some type of inherent
>>>> power (the Ael and Able) strikes me as another parallel to Aztec religions
>>>> (where both human and divine blood has power when offered as a sacrifice).
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Petersen <
>>>> danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks directly
>>>>> about some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction.  The
>>>>> interview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Or you can go straight to the religion bit here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig
>>>>>
>>>>>  I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent from
>>>>> the lower worlds and that "he" struck me as a remarkably deist being,
>>>>> especially considering how active the "gods" of other realms interact with
>>>>> the worlds below them.  It seems that it is easy to go a world "up" or
>>>>> "down", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a "two-world jump" is
>>>>> even impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the
>>>>> world second from the top.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I noticed this too.  In that sense, this work seemed more nearly
>>>>> Gnostic than any other.  I wondered if he was being even more obliquely
>>>>> ironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us distant
>>>>> from the Most High).  But some have pointed out that potentially
>>>>> eucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian
>>>>> redemption is hinted at.
>>>>>
>>>>> -DOJP
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin <
>>>>> kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Haha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. [?] Can anyone link to an
>>>>>> interview(s) in which Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his
>>>>>> writing?  I have read a fair number of his interviews but they were mostly
>>>>>> focused on his philosophies of writing, etc.  Also, if I can bring it back
>>>>>> to *The Wizard* for a minute, I would just point out that the Most
>>>>>> High God seems quite absent from the lower worlds and that "he" struck me
>>>>>> as a remarkably deist being, especially considering how active the "gods"
>>>>>> of other realms interact with the worlds below them.  It seems that it is
>>>>>> easy to go a world "up" or "down", but going farther than that is rarer
>>>>>> (perhaps a "two-world jump" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High
>>>>>> God's influence is mainly in the world second from the top.  Can anyone
>>>>>> refresh my memory of where Parka is from?  Was she an entity of Elysion, or
>>>>>> Kleos?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <
>>>>>> danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could
>>>>>>> not possibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged)
>>>>>>> doctrine of God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the
>>>>>>> Canaanites.  Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a
>>>>>>> doctrine of a merciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from
>>>>>>> themes in Genesis and Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost'
>>>>>>> in idolatry and then the Israelites in slavery.  Sure, Wolfe needs the NT
>>>>>>> development of the doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable
>>>>>>> divine revelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people
>>>>>>> out of idolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah.
>>>>>>>  Thus, the God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is
>>>>>>> progressively revealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox
>>>>>>> Christian understanding.)  That's my thesis.  Seeing the God of the OT
>>>>>>> merely as a genocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's
>>>>>>> fiction, I think.  Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding.  I, at least,
>>>>>>> do not think he is.  (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -DOJP
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2012/3/8 António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and
>>>>>>>>> whatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of
>>>>>>>>> texts (...)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go
>>>>>>>> around all the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate
>>>>>>>> the Canaanites.
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>>
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> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
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