(urth) The Wizard

Thu Mar 8 13:26:03 PST 2012

Not for the same reasons, though.  I doubt a god has anything tangible
(like physical healing, for example) to gain from drinking the blood of
someone who worships.  The divine acceptance of a blood sacrifice seems
more a favor for the followers and a symbol of power than something the god
needs to survive or recover from a wound.  I guess it depends on the
pantheon, though.

On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> wrote:

> But pagan gods commonly drink the blood of their worshippers...
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> I think I will have to reread the portion where Able drinks the Aelf
>> blood; it is interesting that it works "both ways", and if it is a
>> perversion for humans to worship the Aelf since they are from a higher
>> world, it seems like it would also be a perversion of some kind for them to
>> drink Aelf blood (continuing this thought that blood drinking = blood
>> sacrifice).  It makes sense for the blood of the gods (humans) to having
>> healing and salvific powers for their worshipers (Aelf) but not the other
>> way around.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> You're right, and again Able gives his blood voluntarily, making it
>>> somehow salvific.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Antonin Scriabin <
>>> kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given
>>>> voluntarily."
>>>>
>>>> Interesting point.  I also seem to remember Baki being healed in *The
>>>> Wizard* (she had broken legs) was the result of drinking blood.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given
>>>>> voluntarily.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <
>>>>> kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is
>>>>>> brought in right at the end"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is the portion you had in mind when Desiri drinks Able's blood until
>>>>>> she becomes "real"?  The drinking of blood for power / healing /
>>>>>> transformation showed up several times earlier, I remember.  When Able is
>>>>>> wounded in *The Knight* he drinks either Uri or Baki's (I don't
>>>>>> remember which) blood to become healed.  This sort of "blood sacrifice"
>>>>>> that pops up a few times is less a form of thanksgiving and more of a pagan
>>>>>> transference of power; blood as a source of rejuvenation is a particularly
>>>>>> common theme in pre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures.  The fact that the
>>>>>> blood of *several* characters seems to have some type of inherent
>>>>>> power (the Ael and Able) strikes me as another parallel to Aztec religions
>>>>>> (where both human and divine blood has power when offered as a sacrifice).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Petersen <
>>>>>> danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks
>>>>>>> directly about some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction.
>>>>>>>  The interview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or you can go straight to the religion bit here:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent
>>>>>>> from the lower worlds and that "he" struck me as a remarkably deist being,
>>>>>>> especially considering how active the "gods" of other realms interact with
>>>>>>> the worlds below them.  It seems that it is easy to go a world "up" or
>>>>>>> "down", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a "two-world jump" is
>>>>>>> even impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the
>>>>>>> world second from the top.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, I noticed this too.  In that sense, this work seemed more
>>>>>>> nearly Gnostic than any other.  I wondered if he was being even more
>>>>>>> obliquely ironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us
>>>>>>> distant from the Most High).  But some have pointed out that potentially
>>>>>>> eucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian
>>>>>>> redemption is hinted at.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -DOJP
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin <
>>>>>>> kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Haha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. [?] Can anyone link to an
>>>>>>>> interview(s) in which Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his
>>>>>>>> writing?  I have read a fair number of his interviews but they were mostly
>>>>>>>> focused on his philosophies of writing, etc.  Also, if I can bring it back
>>>>>>>> to *The Wizard* for a minute, I would just point out that the Most
>>>>>>>> High God seems quite absent from the lower worlds and that "he" struck me
>>>>>>>> as a remarkably deist being, especially considering how active the "gods"
>>>>>>>> of other realms interact with the worlds below them.  It seems that it is
>>>>>>>> easy to go a world "up" or "down", but going farther than that is rarer
>>>>>>>> (perhaps a "two-world jump" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High
>>>>>>>> God's influence is mainly in the world second from the top.  Can anyone
>>>>>>>> refresh my memory of where Parka is from?  Was she an entity of Elysion, or
>>>>>>>> Kleos?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <
>>>>>>>> danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT
>>>>>>>>> could not possibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged)
>>>>>>>>> doctrine of God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the
>>>>>>>>> Canaanites.  Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a
>>>>>>>>> doctrine of a merciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from
>>>>>>>>> themes in Genesis and Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost'
>>>>>>>>> in idolatry and then the Israelites in slavery.  Sure, Wolfe needs the NT
>>>>>>>>> development of the doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable
>>>>>>>>> divine revelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people
>>>>>>>>> out of idolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah.
>>>>>>>>>  Thus, the God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is
>>>>>>>>> progressively revealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox
>>>>>>>>> Christian understanding.)  That's my thesis.  Seeing the God of the OT
>>>>>>>>> merely as a genocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's
>>>>>>>>> fiction, I think.  Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding.  I, at least,
>>>>>>>>> do not think he is.  (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -DOJP
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2012/3/8 António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and
>>>>>>>>>>> whatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of
>>>>>>>>>>> texts (...)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go
>>>>>>>>>> around all the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate
>>>>>>>>>> the Canaanites.
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>>
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>>
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>
>
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> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>
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