(urth) The Wizard

Thu Mar 8 13:17:04 PST 2012

You're right, and again Able gives his blood voluntarily, making it somehow
salvific.

On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Antonin Scriabin
<kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>wrote:

> "But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given
> voluntarily."
>
> Interesting point.  I also seem to remember Baki being healed in *The
> Wizard* (she had broken legs) was the result of drinking blood.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> But what's different at the end is that Able's blood is given voluntarily.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <
>> kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "But some have pointed out that potentially eucharistic symbolism is
>>> brought in right at the end"
>>>
>>> Is the portion you had in mind when Desiri drinks Able's blood until she
>>> becomes "real"?  The drinking of blood for power / healing / transformation
>>> showed up several times earlier, I remember.  When Able is wounded in *The
>>> Knight* he drinks either Uri or Baki's (I don't remember which) blood
>>> to become healed.  This sort of "blood sacrifice" that pops up a few times
>>> is less a form of thanksgiving and more of a pagan transference of power;
>>> blood as a source of rejuvenation is a particularly common theme in
>>> pre-Columbian Mesoamerican cultures.  The fact that the blood of *
>>> several* characters seems to have some type of inherent power (the Ael
>>> and Able) strikes me as another parallel to Aztec religions (where both
>>> human and divine blood has power when offered as a sacrifice).
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:31 PM, Daniel Petersen <
>>> danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think maybe this is the classic interview where Wolfe talks directly
>>>> about some of his Christian beliefs in relation to his fiction.  The
>>>> interview's conveniently broken into links, one labelled 'religion'.
>>>>
>>>> http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj.html
>>>>
>>>> Or you can go straight to the religion bit here:
>>>>
>>>> http://mysite.verizon.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj1.html#relig
>>>>
>>>>  I would just point out that the Most High God seems quite absent from
>>>> the lower worlds and that "he" struck me as a remarkably deist being,
>>>> especially considering how active the "gods" of other realms interact with
>>>> the worlds below them.  It seems that it is easy to go a world "up" or
>>>> "down", but going farther than that is rarer (perhaps a "two-world jump" is
>>>> even impossible), so perhaps the Most High God's influence is mainly in the
>>>> world second from the top.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, I noticed this too.  In that sense, this work seemed more nearly
>>>> Gnostic than any other.  I wondered if he was being even more obliquely
>>>> ironic and subversive than usual (a world without Christ keeps us distant
>>>> from the Most High).  But some have pointed out that potentially
>>>> eucharistic symbolism is brought in right at the end - so maybe Christian
>>>> redemption is hinted at.
>>>>
>>>> -DOJP
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Antonin Scriabin <
>>>> kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Haha, a valiant attempt, Daniel. [?] Can anyone link to an
>>>>> interview(s) in which Wolfe talks about his faith in relation to his
>>>>> writing?  I have read a fair number of his interviews but they were mostly
>>>>> focused on his philosophies of writing, etc.  Also, if I can bring it back
>>>>> to *The Wizard* for a minute, I would just point out that the Most
>>>>> High God seems quite absent from the lower worlds and that "he" struck me
>>>>> as a remarkably deist being, especially considering how active the "gods"
>>>>> of other realms interact with the worlds below them.  It seems that it is
>>>>> easy to go a world "up" or "down", but going farther than that is rarer
>>>>> (perhaps a "two-world jump" is even impossible), so perhaps the Most High
>>>>> God's influence is mainly in the world second from the top.  Can anyone
>>>>> refresh my memory of where Parka is from?  Was she an entity of Elysion, or
>>>>> Kleos?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Daniel Petersen <
>>>>> danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey, I thought you didn't want to discuss this! :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The *larger* summary of the doctrine of God from the entire OT could
>>>>>> not possibly be accurately represented by a summary of the (alleged)
>>>>>> doctrine of God one garners merely from the orders to exterminate the
>>>>>> Canaanites.  Wolfe, in Long Sun for example, is surely drawing on a
>>>>>> doctrine of a merciful, enlightening, liberating God culled partly from
>>>>>> themes in Genesis and Exodus in terms of God's grace toward Abraham 'lost'
>>>>>> in idolatry and then the Israelites in slavery.  Sure, Wolfe needs the NT
>>>>>> development of the doctrine of God in addition - but humanly understandable
>>>>>> divine revelation and the provision of a leader to lead an oppressed people
>>>>>> out of idolatry and slavery are already powerfully embodied in the Torah.
>>>>>>  Thus, the God in the fiction of Gene Wolfe echoes the God who is
>>>>>> progressively revealed from Old into New Testaments (on the orthodox
>>>>>> Christian understanding.)  That's my thesis.  Seeing the God of the OT
>>>>>> merely as a genocidal tryant does violence to the theology found in Wolfe's
>>>>>> fiction, I think.  Maybe Wolfe's wrong in his understanding.  I, at least,
>>>>>> do not think he is.  (Trying to keep us *slightly* on topic here, heh.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -DOJP
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2012/3/8 António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Daniel Petersen wrote (08-03-2012 16:30):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your summary of the OT God as genocidal and
>>>>>>>> whatnot just is unsophisticated in its reading of the library of
>>>>>>>> texts (...)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The key word is *summary*. Otherwise there's just no way to go
>>>>>>> around all the clear, insistent and absolute *orders* to fully exterminate
>>>>>>> the Canaanites.
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>
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-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
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