(urth) The Wizard

Tue Mar 6 07:59:57 PST 2012

"New Sun is not an allegory of French wine tasting championships."

I think we have the Post of the Day!

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:40 AM, Antonin Scriabin
<kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>wrote:

> "New Sun is not an allegory of French wine tasting championships."
>
> I wish this were true!
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>  I always tell my students that there is no one interpretation that
>> trumps all others because you can always say even more about a good work of
>> fiction. But there are certainly wrong answers (New Sun is not an allegory
>> of French wine tasting championships). And there are definitely better and
>> worse ways of reading a text, even though we may argue about the criteria
>> for better and worse.
>>
>> It's important to remember that interpreting isn't a zero sum game,
>> though. There are certain facts about Wolfe's bio that should be taken into
>> the context. His Catholicism is necessary. It's not necessaily a master key
>> (as if a work of fiction is a mere puzzle), but once you know that fact,
>> it's inescapable. But...that doesn't mean that the best readings will
>> always conform to Catholic orthodoxy. (Besides, what does Wolfe take
>> "orthodoxy" to mean...he's sometimes vague and playful about just that in
>> interviews.)
>>
>> But it does mean that you have to take that into consideration when
>> reading. Could his works be imaginative criticisms of his faith? Sure.
>> Could they be ultimately just fanciful allegories of his beliefs? Sure.
>> Could Severian and New Sun be an "atheistic" work which shows a world that
>> Wolfe sees as a dystopia in relation to his own belief? Sure. In other
>> words, there's a lot of wiggle room in interpretations that take his
>> Catholicism at full face value without simply seeing the works as a
>> transparent reflection of that.
>>
>> After all, if he was just a polemicist, he'd write essays. And he
>> wouldn't need the doubly filtered "lies" of speculative fiction as a way to
>> just out what he believes. I'm certain he does that...but he also does
>> more.
>>
>>
>> On Mar 6, 2012, at 8:46 AM, Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>   "But it's not all subjective, right?"
>>
>> A case can be made that it *is* all subjective, because we can never
>> know the author's motives, but that seems like a petty objection (that, of
>> course, leads to more petty objections for which we can thank
>> postmodernism). <349.gif>  I just think talking about "primary" vs. "other"
>> and "lesser"  allusions is just an odd way to think about a work of
>> fiction; especially when people use phrases like "an allusion to" as code
>> for "this part of the text *means*".  It is one thing to trace
>> allusions, and another to draw grandiose conclusions about Christ having
>> been in one universe or another, etc.  I think it reads a bit too much into
>> the books, and that if we didn't already know going in that Wolfe was a
>> Catholic, we wouldn't be making these conclusion.  It is only because we
>> know he *is* a devout Catholic that we put more emphasis on the
>> Christian allusions than the pagan ones.  And I *highly* doubt the
>> knowledge that Wolfe is Catholic is a key part of the "literary analysis
>> toolkit" he wants us to bring to his works.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Daniel Petersen <
>> danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Aw, come on, guys.  It's not too hard to know which is 'primary' for
>>> Wolfe.  And that doesn't have to take away from the enjoyment of reading
>>> for those who disagree with Wolfe.  I don't try to press atheist writers
>>> into a non-atheist reading when I know that's 'primary' for them.  It is,
>>> of course, legitimate to play on those 'secondary' possibilities and
>>> resonances if that's what interests you more.  But it's not all subjective,
>>> right?
>>>
>>> -DOJP
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <
>>> kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> > Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as "primary" might say more
>>>> about who we are
>>>>
>>>> than what is clear in the books.
>>>>
>>>> Couldn't agree more, and I might add that this is one of the reasons I
>>>> so enjoy Wolfe.  It is one thing to just stuff a story full of clever
>>>> allusions and references, it is quite another to do so and yet create a
>>>> world rich with potential, that gets readers to think and conjure up their
>>>> own interpretations and inferences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >Dan'l Danehey-Oakes:  Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but
>>>>> clearly the Christian
>>>>> >allusions are primary.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as "primary" might say more
>>>>> about who we are
>>>>>
>>>>> than what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and
>>>>> Christianity are
>>>>>
>>>>> both there. So which is more important?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see
>>>>> it, the references
>>>>>
>>>>> to Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ
>>>>> himself. There are
>>>>>
>>>>> roods and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of
>>>>> the eucharist and
>>>>>
>>>>> sermons and confessions and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. I see no
>>>>> christian salvation
>>>>>
>>>>> offered by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The
>>>>> Outsider. All  these
>>>>>
>>>>> guys seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation
>>>>> means surviving. Moving
>>>>>
>>>>> to a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like
>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And
>>>>> perhaps the difference
>>>>>
>>>>> between the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New
>>>>> Testament God. Moses led
>>>>>
>>>>> the chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely
>>>>> new plane of existence.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Wolfe talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe
>>>>> than our own and I
>>>>>
>>>>> think this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a
>>>>> futuristic gnostic
>>>>>
>>>>> monster and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has
>>>>> already appeared.
>>>>> Once Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an
>>>>> option. An option
>>>>>
>>>>> seemingly unavailable to anyone in Briah.
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>>>>
>>>>
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-- 
F.P. Kiesche III  "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,
scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being
presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.)
Blogging at The Lensman's Children (
http://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/).
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