(urth) The Wizard

Tue Mar 6 07:40:25 PST 2012

"New Sun is not an allegory of French wine tasting championships."

I wish this were true!

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I always tell my students that there is no one interpretation that trumps
> all others because you can always say even more about a good work of
> fiction. But there are certainly wrong answers (New Sun is not an allegory
> of French wine tasting championships). And there are definitely better and
> worse ways of reading a text, even though we may argue about the criteria
> for better and worse.
>
> It's important to remember that interpreting isn't a zero sum game,
> though. There are certain facts about Wolfe's bio that should be taken into
> the context. His Catholicism is necessary. It's not necessaily a master key
> (as if a work of fiction is a mere puzzle), but once you know that fact,
> it's inescapable. But...that doesn't mean that the best readings will
> always conform to Catholic orthodoxy. (Besides, what does Wolfe take
> "orthodoxy" to mean...he's sometimes vague and playful about just that in
> interviews.)
>
> But it does mean that you have to take that into consideration when
> reading. Could his works be imaginative criticisms of his faith? Sure.
> Could they be ultimately just fanciful allegories of his beliefs? Sure.
> Could Severian and New Sun be an "atheistic" work which shows a world that
> Wolfe sees as a dystopia in relation to his own belief? Sure. In other
> words, there's a lot of wiggle room in interpretations that take his
> Catholicism at full face value without simply seeing the works as a
> transparent reflection of that.
>
> After all, if he was just a polemicist, he'd write essays. And he wouldn't
> need the doubly filtered "lies" of speculative fiction as a way to just out
> what he believes. I'm certain he does that...but he also does more.
>
>
> On Mar 6, 2012, at 8:46 AM, Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> "But it's not all subjective, right?"
>
> A case can be made that it *is* all subjective, because we can never know
> the author's motives, but that seems like a petty objection (that, of
> course, leads to more petty objections for which we can thank
> postmodernism). <349.gif>  I just think talking about "primary" vs. "other"
> and "lesser"  allusions is just an odd way to think about a work of
> fiction; especially when people use phrases like "an allusion to" as code
> for "this part of the text *means*".  It is one thing to trace allusions,
> and another to draw grandiose conclusions about Christ having been in one
> universe or another, etc.  I think it reads a bit too much into the books,
> and that if we didn't already know going in that Wolfe was a Catholic, we
> wouldn't be making these conclusion.  It is only because we know he *is*a devout Catholic that we put more emphasis on the Christian allusions than
> the pagan ones.  And I *highly* doubt the knowledge that Wolfe is
> Catholic is a key part of the "literary analysis toolkit" he wants us to
> bring to his works.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Daniel Petersen <
> danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Aw, come on, guys.  It's not too hard to know which is 'primary' for
>> Wolfe.  And that doesn't have to take away from the enjoyment of reading
>> for those who disagree with Wolfe.  I don't try to press atheist writers
>> into a non-atheist reading when I know that's 'primary' for them.  It is,
>> of course, legitimate to play on those 'secondary' possibilities and
>> resonances if that's what interests you more.  But it's not all subjective,
>> right?
>>
>> -DOJP
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <
>> kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> > Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as "primary" might say more
>>> about who we are
>>>
>>> than what is clear in the books.
>>>
>>> Couldn't agree more, and I might add that this is one of the reasons I
>>> so enjoy Wolfe.  It is one thing to just stuff a story full of clever
>>> allusions and references, it is quite another to do so and yet create a
>>> world rich with potential, that gets readers to think and conjure up their
>>> own interpretations and inferences.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> >Dan'l Danehey-Oakes:  Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but clearly
>>>> the Christian
>>>> >allusions are primary.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as "primary" might say more
>>>> about who we are
>>>>
>>>> than what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and
>>>> Christianity are
>>>>
>>>> both there. So which is more important?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see
>>>> it, the references
>>>>
>>>> to Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ
>>>> himself. There are
>>>>
>>>> roods and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of
>>>> the eucharist and
>>>>
>>>> sermons and confessions and so on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. I see no
>>>> christian salvation
>>>>
>>>> offered by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The
>>>> Outsider. All  these
>>>>
>>>> guys seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation means
>>>> surviving. Moving
>>>>
>>>> to a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And
>>>> perhaps the difference
>>>>
>>>> between the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New
>>>> Testament God. Moses led
>>>>
>>>> the chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely
>>>> new plane of existence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wolfe talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe
>>>> than our own and I
>>>>
>>>> think this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a
>>>> futuristic gnostic
>>>>
>>>> monster and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has
>>>> already appeared.
>>>> Once Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an
>>>> option. An option
>>>>
>>>> seemingly unavailable to anyone in Briah.
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