(urth) Gummed-Up Works or Got Lives?

[Daniel Petersen]

To be honest, David, I was completely sympathetic with you in your response
to Gerry.  I even knew that's what you were getting at.  I was just worried
the derisive-seeming shorthand could be easily misunderstood by Gerry as
well as those observing the exchange.

-DOJP

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 7:38 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:

> Actually 'illiterate know-nothing' was a clinical assessment. ;)
>
> But if you look closely, I was pointing out that Gerry uses his own
> illiteracy as evidence for his arguments. He really does. This observation
> is substantively different from an /ad hominem/ approach that would rightly
> be considered to degrade discussion.
>
> On 12/16/2011 1:48 PM, Daniel Petersen wrote:
>
>> Thanks for your generous interpretation of my comments, Lee.  I actually
>> am well known among family and friends as being the aggro one at times - I
>> have to fight hard with myself to be civilised in debate, as I'm naturally
>> a passionate, opinionated, snarky person (half the time).  Some nasty scrap
>> and scrape in a forum like this is indeed a very good and healthy and
>> enjoyable thing.  I have zero problem with some feisty intellectual
>> punch-ups happening here.  It's when the insults start to sound pretty dark
>> and vitriolic that I worry it's no longer 'useful' and certainly not fun.
>>  I may well have misinterpreted, for example, Stockhoff calling Quinn and
>> 'illiterate know-nothing' and this is good debating-buddy language they use
>> with each other all the time (I have friends I argue with like that -
>> sometimes it crosses the line and we swear off each other for a while, then
>> make up and go at it again).
>>
>> Anyway, at least as much as that, I have problems with a more
>> intellectual obstinacy and obnoxiousness I sometimes see evident here.
>>  It's unfortunate, Lee, that I often have to just skim over or skip the
>> (usually lengthy) comments made by you and Gerry.  But that's what I do
>> rather than calling for you guys to be debarred.
>>
>> Two final notes:  I seriously doubt letting off steam on the internet
>> prevents it happening in real life.  I imagine there are complex studies
>> into these kinds of notions that show the whole thing is dubiously
>> unpredictable.  But that's merely an aside.
>>
>> The second thing is that I feel fairly uncomfortable with the idea of
>> people having 'goals' for this list.  What in the world?  (Like my sanitary
>> version of wtf?)  The list has a simple and stated purpose:  to discuss
>> Wolfe's works.  Let's leave it at that and be busy with it - not trying to
>> manipulate others and the 'community' toward further ends we've concocted.
>>  That's just weird.  Not in the good 'weird fiction' way.  It's... creepy.
>>
>> -DOJP
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com<mailto:
>> severiansola at hotmail.**com <severiansola at hotmail.com>>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>    >Daniel Petersen:  I simply don't understand you very well, Lee,
>>    and Quinn I feel I do
>>    >understand to some degree but find his seeming obstinacy about....
>>
>>    You seem like a gentle, considerate soul Daniel, which I think is
>>    great. But do you
>>    believe in the adage, "it takes one to know one"? Gerry and I
>>    understand each other very well.
>>    I recognize him as a social manipulator and his retort to that is
>>    to accuse me of the same.
>>    Gerry, in his desire to win every debate, cannot admit to this
>>    shortcoming but I appreciate
>>    his honesty in not trying to deny his own mechinations.
>>
>>    I freely admit to it. My explicitly stated goal in rejoining this
>>    list a couple years ago
>>    was to restore a sense of freedom of expression, the lack of which
>>    had previously stifled the
>>    list for a number of years.  I have employed various strategems to
>>    achieve this goal. Have I
>>    suceeded at all?
>>
>>    I think your confusion about Gerry is that you underestimate and
>>    oversimplify him. You wonder
>>    why he employs certain strategies when they seem counterproductive
>>    to what he is trying to
>>    achieve. But, as I said, I don't consider him an object of pity.
>>    Is it possible Gerry is
>>    getting exactly what he wants from this list? Why else would he
>>    continue his very consistent
>>    pattern of communication?  Gerry also has goals for this list.
>>    What are they? (I'll let him
>>    answer) Has he succeeded?
>>
>>    >Nor do I think my comments betrayed that I was 'missing
>>    something', especially
>>    >not 'a recognition of human diversity'.  I am (they are) calling
>>    for just such recognition and
>>    >celebration of human diversity - belligerence
>>    and'over-stubbornness' do not facilitate this.
>>
>>    I think I understand your point of view Daniel. It is a wonderful
>>    one. Belligerence and pig-head
>>    stubborness do cause a lot of problems in this world and it might
>>    be a better place without them.
>>    No fighting, no killing, no hate.
>>
>>    But the truth is, if we managed to eliminate those things, the
>>    world would be a less diverse place.
>>    Currently, aggression IS a part of the human experience and a
>>    pervasive, influential one at that.
>>    Much of my professional experience has been in what some might
>>    call the "dregs" of society and I
>>    have thus been quite familiarized with the dark side of human nature.
>>
>>    Though I've always preached a message of peace and understanding
>>    in my work, I also came to know
>>    that there are some people who are inherently aggressive. You
>>    simply cannot reach such people
>>    with a message of peace and understanding. It doesn't register. So
>>    what should we do?
>>
>>    The answer is what societies throughout history have done with
>>    such people. Channel the aggression
>>    toward productive or at least harmless activities. Sports and
>>    other competitions are a good
>>    example.
>>
>>    So, I hope you can see what I'm saying. For some people, preaching
>>    the use of respectful, considerate
>>    language here is a lost cause. Instead, embrace the conflict.
>>    Encourage the expression of hostility
>>    in a place like this instead of in the real world. Not only does
>>    the energy of competition drive
>>    some people to do intense scholastic research they might not
>>    otherwise do; it just might be making
>>    the real world a more peaceful place by reducing domestic
>>    violence, pub fights and perhaps even war.
>>
>>
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