(urth) Is Agia a Robot?
David Stockhoff
dstockhoff at verizon.net
Sat Jun 19 06:20:45 PDT 2010
Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point.
I suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it than
to propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not.
brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again, I
> am on the same page as you.
>
> .
>
>
>
>> Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.
>>
>> (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly created
>> by the gods.
>>
>> (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a
>> shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no
>> reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.
>>
>> There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known
>> principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from
>> plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and directly
>> relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest
>> central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are
>> twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous
>> tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important
>> character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie
>> ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the
>> box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies
>> heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties
>> in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for
>> godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards
>> established differences between robots and humans, because what matters
>> in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.
>>
>> Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.
>>
>> Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an
>> assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is capable
>> of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the
>> above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being
>> Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the
>> gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.
>>
>> I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the
>> aureole around A&A.
>>
>> David Stockhoff wrote:
>>
>>> Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself,
>>> but it makes some sense.
>>>
>>> (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin
>>> sister in Love.
>>>
>>> (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her
>>> name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.
>>>
>>> (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in
>>> many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe,
>>> one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new
>>> hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in
>>> Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous
>>> love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.
>>>
>>> (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with
>>> his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.
>>>
>>> (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja
>>> on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes
>>> it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the
>>> facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized
>>> for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his
>>> powers; he probably acquired her through his powers.
>>>
>>> (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She
>>> met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She
>>> awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now
>>> she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she
>>> can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of
>>> this.)
>>>
>>> (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an
>>> assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world
>>> to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it
>>> AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of
>>> Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.
>>>
>>> It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it
>>> doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that
>>> robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil
>>> regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be
>>> god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more
>>> of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic
>>> Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.
>>>
>>> How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even
>>> had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created?
>>> Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were
>>> truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less
>>> happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent
>>> question, "So what if Agia is a robot?"
>>>
>>> (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns
>>> spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just
>>> that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is
>>> beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to
>>> kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the
>>> Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the
>>> Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all.
>>>
>>> I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler
>>> or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not
>>> human.
>>>
>>> Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over
>>>> Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is
>>>> just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are
>>>> to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or
>>>> simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.
>>>>
>>>> I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.
>>>>
>>>> ...ryan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes
>>>>> even more important to explain what changed her.
>>>>>
>>>>> And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no
>>>>> Pinocchio.
>>>>>
>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to
>>>>>>> Severian.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Adam Thornton wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that
>>>>>>>>> Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show
>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>> his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling
>>>>>>>> Agia's
>>>>>>>> strings.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Adam
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