(urth) Is Agia a Robot?

Sat Jun 19 06:25:06 PDT 2010

When has an assassin robot been mentioned?

According to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name.

Agia is an oriental robot.

.

> Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point.
>
> I suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it than
> to propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not.
>
> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>> Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again,
>> I
>> am on the same page as you.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>> Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.
>>>
>>> (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly
>>> created
>>> by the gods.
>>>
>>> (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a
>>> shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no
>>> reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.
>>>
>>> There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known
>>> principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from
>>> plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and
>>> directly
>>> relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest
>>> central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are
>>> twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous
>>> tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important
>>> character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie
>>> ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the
>>> box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies
>>> heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties
>>> in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for
>>> godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards
>>> established differences between robots and humans, because what matters
>>> in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.
>>>
>>> Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.
>>>
>>> Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an
>>> assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is
>>> capable
>>> of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the
>>> above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being
>>> Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the
>>> gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.
>>>
>>> I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the
>>> aureole around A&A.
>>>
>>> David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>
>>>> Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself,
>>>> but it makes some sense.
>>>>
>>>> (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin
>>>> sister in Love.
>>>>
>>>> (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her
>>>> name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.
>>>>
>>>> (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in
>>>> many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe,
>>>> one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new
>>>> hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in
>>>> Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous
>>>> love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.
>>>>
>>>> (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with
>>>> his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.
>>>>
>>>> (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja
>>>> on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes
>>>> it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the
>>>> facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized
>>>> for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his
>>>> powers; he probably acquired her through his powers.
>>>>
>>>> (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She
>>>> met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She
>>>> awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now
>>>> she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she
>>>> can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of
>>>> this.)
>>>>
>>>> (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an
>>>> assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world
>>>> to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it
>>>> AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of
>>>> Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.
>>>>
>>>> It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it
>>>> doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that
>>>> robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil
>>>> regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be
>>>> god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more
>>>> of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic
>>>> Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.
>>>>
>>>> How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even
>>>> had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created?
>>>> Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were
>>>> truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less
>>>> happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent
>>>> question, "So what if Agia is a robot?"
>>>>
>>>> (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns
>>>> spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just
>>>> that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is
>>>> beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to
>>>> kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the
>>>> Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the
>>>> Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all.
>>>>
>>>> I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler
>>>> or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not
>>>> human.
>>>>
>>>> Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over
>>>>> Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is
>>>>> just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are
>>>>> to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or
>>>>> simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...ryan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes
>>>>>> even more important to explain what changed her.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no
>>>>>> Pinocchio.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to
>>>>>>>> Severian.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Adam Thornton wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that
>>>>>>>>>> Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show
>>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>>> his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The same one from the Toy Theater?  Perhaps Hethor is pulling
>>>>>>>>> Agia's
>>>>>>>>> strings.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Adam
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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