(urth) Is Agia a Robot?

Sat Jun 19 05:57:41 PDT 2010

Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over again, I
am on the same page as you.

.

> Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.
>
> (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly created
> by the gods.
>
> (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a
> shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no
> reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.
>
> There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known
> principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from
> plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and directly
> relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest
> central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are
> twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous
> tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important
> character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian hottie
> ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the
> box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies
> heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and ties
> in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching for
> godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards
> established differences between robots and humans, because what matters
> in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.
>
> Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.
>
> Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an
> assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is capable
> of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the
> above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being
> Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the
> gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.
>
> I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the
> aureole around A&A.
>
> David Stockhoff wrote:
>> Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to himself,
>> but it makes some sense.
>>
>> (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin
>> sister in Love.
>>
>> (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy (her
>> name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.
>>
>> (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian in
>> many ways. Together they represent a different path for the universe,
>> one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new
>> hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in
>> Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and pseudoincestuous
>> love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.
>>
>> (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite with
>> his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.
>>
>> (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll ninja
>> on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes
>> it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the
>> facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is specialized
>> for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his
>> powers; he probably acquired her through his powers.
>>
>> (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her. She
>> met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She
>> awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but now
>> she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what she
>> can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of
>> this.)
>>
>> (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an
>> assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the world
>> to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call it
>> AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of
>> Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.
>>
>> It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it
>> doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that
>> robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil
>> regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be
>> god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more
>> of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic
>> Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.
>>
>> How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even
>> had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules created?
>> Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were
>> truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less
>> happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the excellent
>> question, "So what if Agia is a robot?"
>>
>> (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns
>> spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just
>> that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is
>> beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to
>> kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the
>> Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the
>> Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all.
>>
>> I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler
>> or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not
>> human.
>>
>> Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over
>>> Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is
>>> just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we are
>>> to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that or
>>> simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.
>>>
>>> I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.
>>>
>>> ...ryan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it becomes
>>>> even more important to explain what changed her.
>>>>
>>>> And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no
>>>> Pinocchio.
>>>>
>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.
>>>>>
>>>>> She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to
>>>>>> Severian.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adam Thornton wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that
>>>>>>>> Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to show
>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>> his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The same one from the Toy Theater?  Perhaps Hethor is pulling
>>>>>>> Agia's
>>>>>>> strings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Adam
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