(urth) Is Agia a Robot?

Fri Jun 18 20:08:55 PDT 2010

First time here.

It's deep.

But is it fragrant?

.

> Man that's deep. But I found myself nodding a lot. Another
> consideration...
>
> If she is the escapee, it makes perfect sense for her to want to
> change her identity, in case Hethor ever caught back up with her.
>
> I find the notion that these two are not birth twins not only
> intriguing but fully plausible.
>
> Thanks for this spirited debate and discussion, truly an awesome group
> of minds on here. Hopefully it wasn't too much of a retread for some.
>
> ...ryan
>
> On Jun 18, 2010, at 9:34 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to
>> himself, but it makes some sense.
>>
>> (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin
>> sister in Love.
>>
>> (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy
>> (her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.
>>
>> (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian
>> in many ways. Together they represent a different path for the
>> universe, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new
>> universe of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can
>> lie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and
>> pseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and
>> They click.
>>
>> (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite
>> with his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.
>>
>> (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll
>> ninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which
>> makes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the
>> facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is
>> specialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her
>> because of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers.
>>
>> (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her.
>> She met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She
>> awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but
>> now she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and
>> what she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches
>> glimpses of this.)
>>
>> (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an
>> assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the
>> world to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus.
>> (Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them
>> rivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill
>> Agilus.
>>
>> It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it
>> doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that
>> robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil
>> regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be
>> god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more
>> of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic
>> Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.
>>
>> How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even
>> had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules
>> created? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if
>> they were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already
>> more or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer
>> to the excellent question, "So what if Agia is a robot?"
>>
>> (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns
>> spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just
>> that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is
>> beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to
>> kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the
>> Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the
>> Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all.
>>
>> I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler
>> or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not
>> human.
>>
>> Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over
>>> Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is
>>> just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we
>>> are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either
>>> that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.
>>>
>>> I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.
>>>
>>> ...ryan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it
>>>> becomes even more important to explain what changed her.
>>>>
>>>> And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no
>>>> Pinocchio.
>>>>
>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.
>>>>>
>>>>> She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to
>>>>>> Severian.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adam Thornton wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that
>>>>>>>> Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to
>>>>>>>> show off
>>>>>>>> his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The same one from the Toy Theater?  Perhaps Hethor is pulling
>>>>>>> Agia's
>>>>>>> strings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Adam
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Urth Mailing List
>>>>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>>>>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 100618-1, 06/18/2010
>>>>>>> Tested on: 6/18/2010 7:03:33 PM
>>>>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.
>>>>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Urth Mailing List
>>>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Urth Mailing List
>>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 100618-1, 06/18/2010
>>>>> Tested on: 6/18/2010 7:36:33 PM
>>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.
>>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Urth Mailing List
>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Urth Mailing List
>>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
>>> Virus Database (VPS): 100618-1, 06/18/2010
>>> Tested on: 6/18/2010 8:33:34 PM
>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.
>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Urth Mailing List
>> To post, write urth at urth.net
>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>