(urth) Is Agia a Robot?

Ryan Dunn ryan at liftingfaces.com
Fri Jun 18 19:47:29 PDT 2010 

Man that's deep. But I found myself nodding a lot. Another  
consideration...

If she is the escapee, it makes perfect sense for her to want to  
change her identity, in case Hethor ever caught back up with her.

I find the notion that these two are not birth twins not only  
intriguing but fully plausible.

Thanks for this spirited debate and discussion, truly an awesome group  
of minds on here. Hopefully it wasn't too much of a retread for some.

...ryan

On Jun 18, 2010, at 9:34 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>  
wrote:

> Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to  
> himself, but it makes some sense.
>
> (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin  
> sister in Love.
>
> (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy  
> (her name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.
>
> (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian  
> in many ways. Together they represent a different path for the  
> universe, one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new  
> universe of new hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can  
> lie just in Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and  
> pseudoincestuous love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and  
> They click.
>
> (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite  
> with his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.
>
> (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll  
> ninja on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which  
> makes it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the  
> facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is  
> specialized for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her  
> because of his powers; he probably acquired her through his powers.
>
> (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her.  
> She met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She  
> awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but  
> now she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and  
> what she can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches  
> glimpses of this.)
>
> (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an  
> assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the  
> world to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus.  
> (Call it AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them  
> rivals of Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill  
> Agilus.
>
> It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it  
> doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that  
> robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil  
> regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be  
> god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more  
> of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic  
> Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.
>
> How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even  
> had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules  
> created? Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if  
> they were truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already  
> more or less happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer  
> to the excellent question, "So what if Agia is a robot?"
>
> (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns  
> spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just  
> that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is  
> beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to  
> kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the  
> Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the  
> Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all.
>
> I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler  
> or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not  
> human.
>
> Ryan Dunn wrote:
>> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over  
>> Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is  
>> just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we  
>> are to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either  
>> that or simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.
>>
>> I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.
>>
>> ...ryan
>>
>>
>> On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:
>>
>>
>>> That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it  
>>> becomes even more important to explain what changed her.
>>>
>>> And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no  
>>> Pinocchio.
>>>
>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.
>>>>
>>>> She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to  
>>>>> Severian.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adam Thornton wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters  
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion that
>>>>>>> Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to  
>>>>>>> show off
>>>>>>> his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The same one from the Toy Theater?  Perhaps Hethor is pulling  
>>>>>> Agia's
>>>>>> strings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adam
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