(urth) The Devil in a Forest

brunians at brunians.org brunians at brunians.org
Tue May 19 12:09:54 PDT 2009


So do you just say and titter at each other or do you have some examples
(you will note that I gave two examples of what I was talking about)?

Are you really a member of CPUSA, Lane? I thought that they were all gone,
Gus Hall fucked off to North Korea when the Russian money was cut off.

It's sort of quaint, really. Like meeting a time traveller.

Are you one of those crusty old commies like my quasirelative Dave Wald
(http://www.sanjosepeace.org/mediagallery/album.php?aid=8)? If you are
younger than thirty or so you should be aware that you may not actually be
a socialist, but a larval conservative: the process by which a young
socialist becomes and old capitalist is widely known.

Peace and Freedom!



.





> No, I meant out of touch with reality.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 19, 2009, at 1:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>
>> Really?
>>
>> I have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues
>> money
>> or that theft is OK when performed by the government.
>>
>> I'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how its
>> mind works (or should that be "how its 'mind' 'works'").
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>> That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> 'tends to'.
>>>>
>>>> Once in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out of
>>>> touch
>>>> with reality. Not too often.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in
>>>> touch
>>>> enough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk
>>>> to one
>>>> often enough you will find that he believes stuff that just ain't so
>>>> (like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is
>>>> performed by
>>>> legal process, things like that).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist
>>>>> party. I
>>>>> also do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the
>>>>> other
>>>>> that Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his
>>>>> stories are still very, very awesome.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good literature transcends factionalism.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lane
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually, "Wolfe is pro-gun" has the ring of truth to it, as does
>>>>>> "Wolfe
>>>>>> is a fiscal conservative". He has his point of view on things.
>>>>>> People who
>>>>>> agree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> different from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through
>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>> hoops
>>>>>> whilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>> else
>>>>>> seems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at
>>>>>> length.
>>>>>> Like most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda
>>>>>>> is.
>>>>>>> Sure,
>>>>>>> Wolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just
>>>>>>> propagandize for
>>>>>>> a narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes
>>>>>>> things as
>>>>>>> black and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.
>>>>>>> Rather, he
>>>>>>> asks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of
>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Almost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it
>>>>>>> simple---says "Wolfe is pro-gun," for example---is going to be
>>>>>>> inadequate,
>>>>>>> even if not flatly wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>> devil hiding in them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Message: 5
>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500
>>>>>>> From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest
>>>>>>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>>>>> Message-ID: <322A6386203C478F871C5C0BEAD76770 at eMachinePC>
>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>>>>  reply-type=original
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Propaganda" may be just the right term for Wolfe.
>>>>>>>>> Originally it was a term used by the Vatican for the
>>>>>>>>> propagation of the faith. It's come to have a cheaper meaning.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I use the term "propaganda" to mean "the attempt to persuade at
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> non-rational level". It has a bad rap because it is typically so
>>>>>>> inartfully
>>>>>>> done. The idea is to have the audience only stew in the well-
>>>>>>> seasoned
>>>>>>> juices
>>>>>>> of the argument so they rationally convince themselves at a later
>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>> have to _demonstrate_ while exhibiting the self-control never _to
>>>>>>> tell_.
>>>>>>> "The Devil in a Forest" does that. If the work is essentially
>>>>>>> framed in a
>>>>>>> "message", rather than metaphor, the audience is forced to
>>>>>>> approach
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> propaganda on a rational level and it loses its much of its
>>>>>>> power.
>>>>>>> For
>>>>>>> example, Woody Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land" is fantastic
>>>>>>> Communist
>>>>>>> propaganda (if you know all the verses). Pete Seeger's stuff is
>>>>>>> hack-work--if he had a hammer, he'd hit you over the head with
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...tDiaF ends with a miracle -- the only "fantasy" element in
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> book...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I even wonder whether it *is* the only fantasy element. There are
>>>>>>> subtle
>>>>>>> hints that the stories of Mother Cloot being able to fly might
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> be mere
>>>>>>> superstition at all.  And at least twice it is noted that she
>>>>>>> *is*
>>>>>>> unexpectedly light. It is a tip to the hat that Evil is also not
>>>>>>> merely a
>>>>>>> fantasy element. Still, certainly the only _overtly_ non-rational
>>>>>>> event is
>>>>>>> the abbe's healing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> J.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---
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>>>>>>> Tested on: 5/19/2009 10:30:07 AM
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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