(urth) The Devil in a Forest

Tue May 19 12:23:19 PDT 2009

> So do you just say

insert 'that': "do you just say that and titter at each other".

Brain ahead of typing gets. Blah.

>                     and titter at each other or do you have some examples
> (you will note that I gave two examples of what I was talking about)?
>
> Are you really a member of CPUSA, Lane? I thought that they were all gone,
> Gus Hall fucked off to North Korea when the Russian money was cut off.
>
> It's sort of quaint, really. Like meeting a time traveller.
>
> Are you one of those crusty old commies like my quasirelative Dave Wald
> (http://www.sanjosepeace.org/mediagallery/album.php?aid=8)? If you are
> younger than thirty or so you should be aware that you may not actually be
> a socialist, but a larval conservative: the process by which a young
> socialist becomes and old capitalist is widely known.
>
> Peace and Freedom!
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>> No, I meant out of touch with reality.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 19, 2009, at 1:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>
>>> Really?
>>>
>>> I have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues
>>> money
>>> or that theft is OK when performed by the government.
>>>
>>> I'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how its
>>> mind works (or should that be "how its 'mind' 'works'").
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>> That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 'tends to'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out of
>>>>> touch
>>>>> with reality. Not too often.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in
>>>>> touch
>>>>> enough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk
>>>>> to one
>>>>> often enough you will find that he believes stuff that just ain't so
>>>>> (like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is
>>>>> performed by
>>>>> legal process, things like that).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist
>>>>>> party. I
>>>>>> also do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> that Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his
>>>>>> stories are still very, very awesome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good literature transcends factionalism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lane
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, "Wolfe is pro-gun" has the ring of truth to it, as does
>>>>>>> "Wolfe
>>>>>>> is a fiscal conservative". He has his point of view on things.
>>>>>>> People who
>>>>>>> agree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>> different from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through
>>>>>>> interesting
>>>>>>> hoops
>>>>>>> whilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what
>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>> seems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at
>>>>>>> length.
>>>>>>> Like most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda
>>>>>>>> is.
>>>>>>>> Sure,
>>>>>>>> Wolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just
>>>>>>>> propagandize for
>>>>>>>> a narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes
>>>>>>>> things as
>>>>>>>> black and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.
>>>>>>>> Rather, he
>>>>>>>> asks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of
>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Almost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it
>>>>>>>> simple---says "Wolfe is pro-gun," for example---is going to be
>>>>>>>> inadequate,
>>>>>>>> even if not flatly wrong.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>> devil hiding in them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Message: 5
>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500
>>>>>>>> From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest
>>>>>>>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>>>>>> Message-ID: <322A6386203C478F871C5C0BEAD76770 at eMachinePC>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>>>>>  reply-type=original
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Propaganda" may be just the right term for Wolfe.
>>>>>>>>>> Originally it was a term used by the Vatican for the
>>>>>>>>>> propagation of the faith. It's come to have a cheaper meaning.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I use the term "propaganda" to mean "the attempt to persuade at
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> non-rational level". It has a bad rap because it is typically so
>>>>>>>> inartfully
>>>>>>>> done. The idea is to have the audience only stew in the well-
>>>>>>>> seasoned
>>>>>>>> juices
>>>>>>>> of the argument so they rationally convince themselves at a later
>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>> have to _demonstrate_ while exhibiting the self-control never _to
>>>>>>>> tell_.
>>>>>>>> "The Devil in a Forest" does that. If the work is essentially
>>>>>>>> framed in a
>>>>>>>> "message", rather than metaphor, the audience is forced to
>>>>>>>> approach
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> propaganda on a rational level and it loses its much of its
>>>>>>>> power.
>>>>>>>> For
>>>>>>>> example, Woody Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land" is fantastic
>>>>>>>> Communist
>>>>>>>> propaganda (if you know all the verses). Pete Seeger's stuff is
>>>>>>>> hack-work--if he had a hammer, he'd hit you over the head with
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ...tDiaF ends with a miracle -- the only "fantasy" element in
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> book...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I even wonder whether it *is* the only fantasy element. There are
>>>>>>>> subtle
>>>>>>>> hints that the stories of Mother Cloot being able to fly might
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> be mere
>>>>>>>> superstition at all.  And at least twice it is noted that she
>>>>>>>> *is*
>>>>>>>> unexpectedly light. It is a tip to the hat that Evil is also not
>>>>>>>> merely a
>>>>>>>> fantasy element. Still, certainly the only _overtly_ non-rational
>>>>>>>> event is
>>>>>>>> the abbe's healing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> J.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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