(urth) The Devil in a Forest

Tue May 19 11:56:56 PDT 2009

No, I meant out of touch with reality.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 19, 2009, at 1:32 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

> Really?
>
> I have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues  
> money
> or that theft is OK when performed by the government.
>
> I'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how its
> mind works (or should that be "how its 'mind' 'works'").
>
>
>
>
> .
>
>> That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>
>>> 'tends to'.
>>>
>>> Once in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out of
>>> touch
>>> with reality. Not too often.
>>>
>>> Actually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in
>>> touch
>>> enough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk
>>> to one
>>> often enough you will find that he believes stuff that just ain't so
>>> (like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is
>>> performed by
>>> legal process, things like that).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist  
>>>> party. I
>>>> also do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the  
>>>> other
>>>> that Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his
>>>> stories are still very, very awesome.
>>>>
>>>> Good literature transcends factionalism.
>>>>
>>>> Lane
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Actually, "Wolfe is pro-gun" has the ring of truth to it, as does
>>>>> "Wolfe
>>>>> is a fiscal conservative". He has his point of view on things.
>>>>> People who
>>>>> agree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.
>>>>>
>>>>> People who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views
>>>>> very
>>>>> different from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through  
>>>>> interesting
>>>>> hoops
>>>>> whilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what  
>>>>> everyone
>>>>> else
>>>>> seems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at
>>>>> length.
>>>>> Like most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda  
>>>>>> is.
>>>>>> Sure,
>>>>>> Wolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just
>>>>>> propagandize for
>>>>>> a narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes
>>>>>> things as
>>>>>> black and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.
>>>>>> Rather, he
>>>>>> asks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of
>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Almost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it
>>>>>> simple---says "Wolfe is pro-gun," for example---is going to be
>>>>>> inadequate,
>>>>>> even if not flatly wrong.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if  
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> is a
>>>>>> devil hiding in them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 5
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500
>>>>>> From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest
>>>>>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>>>> Message-ID: <322A6386203C478F871C5C0BEAD76770 at eMachinePC>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>>>  reply-type=original
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Propaganda" may be just the right term for Wolfe.
>>>>>>>> Originally it was a term used by the Vatican for the
>>>>>>>> propagation of the faith. It's come to have a cheaper meaning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I use the term "propaganda" to mean "the attempt to persuade at  
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> non-rational level". It has a bad rap because it is typically so
>>>>>> inartfully
>>>>>> done. The idea is to have the audience only stew in the well-
>>>>>> seasoned
>>>>>> juices
>>>>>> of the argument so they rationally convince themselves at a later
>>>>>> time.
>>>>>> You
>>>>>> have to _demonstrate_ while exhibiting the self-control never _to
>>>>>> tell_.
>>>>>> "The Devil in a Forest" does that. If the work is essentially
>>>>>> framed in a
>>>>>> "message", rather than metaphor, the audience is forced to  
>>>>>> approach
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> propaganda on a rational level and it loses its much of its  
>>>>>> power.
>>>>>> For
>>>>>> example, Woody Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land" is fantastic
>>>>>> Communist
>>>>>> propaganda (if you know all the verses). Pete Seeger's stuff is
>>>>>> hack-work--if he had a hammer, he'd hit you over the head with  
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...tDiaF ends with a miracle -- the only "fantasy" element in  
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> book...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I even wonder whether it *is* the only fantasy element. There are
>>>>>> subtle
>>>>>> hints that the stories of Mother Cloot being able to fly might  
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> be mere
>>>>>> superstition at all.  And at least twice it is noted that she  
>>>>>> *is*
>>>>>> unexpectedly light. It is a tip to the hat that Evil is also not
>>>>>> merely a
>>>>>> fantasy element. Still, certainly the only _overtly_ non-rational
>>>>>> event is
>>>>>> the abbe's healing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> J.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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