(urth) The Devil in a Forest

brunians at brunians.org brunians at brunians.org
Tue May 19 11:32:46 PDT 2009


Really?

I have never met a libertarian who claims that the government issues money
or that theft is OK when performed by the government.

I'd be more than happy to talk to such a creature, just to see how its
mind works (or should that be "how its 'mind' 'works'").




.

> That's funny. We say the same things about libertarians.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 19, 2009, at 1:13 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>
>> 'tends to'.
>>
>> Once in a while you run into a leftist who is not completely out of
>> touch
>> with reality. Not too often.
>>
>> Actually, that's not completely fair. Many leftists are in fact in
>> touch
>> enough with reality to carry on their daily lives. But if you talk
>> to one
>> often enough you will find that he believes stuff that just ain't so
>> (like, the government issues money or theft is OK when it is
>> performed by
>> legal process, things like that).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>> I'm a democratic socialist and a member of the US Communist party. I
>>> also do not believe in God. It doesn't affect me one way or the other
>>> that Wolfe is my opposite number on these positions, because his
>>> stories are still very, very awesome.
>>>
>>> Good literature transcends factionalism.
>>>
>>> Lane
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On May 19, 2009, at 9:47 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> Actually, "Wolfe is pro-gun" has the ring of truth to it, as does
>>>> "Wolfe
>>>> is a fiscal conservative". He has his point of view on things.
>>>> People who
>>>> agree with him generally have no trouble seeing it.
>>>>
>>>> People who (a) like Wolfe's fiction and (b) hold political views
>>>> very
>>>> different from his tend to (I have noticed) jump through interesting
>>>> hoops
>>>> whilst explaining that Wolfe does not actually believe what everyone
>>>> else
>>>> seems to think he does. Anything but that. They will deny it at
>>>> length.
>>>> Like most things, this is amusing once it stops being annoying.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I think there is more to it than just how sneaky his propaganda is.
>>>>> Sure,
>>>>> Wolfe is propagandizing, as always---but he doesn't just
>>>>> propagandize for
>>>>> a narrow segment of the political spectrum, and he rarely makes
>>>>> things as
>>>>> black and white and baldly allegorical as you seem to suggest.
>>>>> Rather, he
>>>>> asks questions and examines the moral aspects of the range of
>>>>> answers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Almost by definition, an interpretation of Wolfe that keeps it
>>>>> simple---says "Wolfe is pro-gun," for example---is going to be
>>>>> inadequate,
>>>>> even if not flatly wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, don't lose the forest for the trees, even if there
>>>>> is a
>>>>> devil hiding in them.
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 5
>>>>> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 22:41:30 -0500
>>>>> From: "James Wynn" <crushtv at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) The Devil in a Forest
>>>>> To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>>> Message-ID: <322A6386203C478F871C5C0BEAD76770 at eMachinePC>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>>>>   reply-type=original
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Propaganda" may be just the right term for Wolfe.
>>>>>>> Originally it was a term used by the Vatican for the
>>>>>>> propagation of the faith. It's come to have a cheaper meaning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I use the term "propaganda" to mean "the attempt to persuade at the
>>>>> non-rational level". It has a bad rap because it is typically so
>>>>> inartfully
>>>>> done. The idea is to have the audience only stew in the well-
>>>>> seasoned
>>>>> juices
>>>>> of the argument so they rationally convince themselves at a later
>>>>> time.
>>>>> You
>>>>> have to _demonstrate_ while exhibiting the self-control never _to
>>>>> tell_.
>>>>> "The Devil in a Forest" does that. If the work is essentially
>>>>> framed in a
>>>>> "message", rather than metaphor, the audience is forced to approach
>>>>> the
>>>>> propaganda on a rational level and it loses its much of its power.
>>>>> For
>>>>> example, Woody Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land" is fantastic
>>>>> Communist
>>>>> propaganda (if you know all the verses). Pete Seeger's stuff is
>>>>> hack-work--if he had a hammer, he'd hit you over the head with it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...tDiaF ends with a miracle -- the only "fantasy" element in the
>>>>>> book...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I even wonder whether it *is* the only fantasy element. There are
>>>>> subtle
>>>>> hints that the stories of Mother Cloot being able to fly might not
>>>>> be mere
>>>>> superstition at all.  And at least twice it is noted that she *is*
>>>>> unexpectedly light. It is a tip to the hat that Evil is also not
>>>>> merely a
>>>>> fantasy element. Still, certainly the only _overtly_ non-rational
>>>>> event is
>>>>> the abbe's healing.
>>>>>
>>>>> J.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
>>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 090518-0, 05/18/2009
>>>>> Tested on: 5/19/2009 10:30:07 AM
>>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2009 ALWIL Software.
>>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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