(urth) An Old mystery ...

Fri Dec 5 12:05:14 PST 2008

>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 12:00 PM
>To: 'The Urth Mailing List'
>Subject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...
>
>I don't see how that rebuts the eugenic rationale for the
>Hierogrammates.  "Trying to let us become what we were" = "trying to
>breed us into Hieros."
>
>They've slathered layers of mysticism and awe on the process, played
>on Severian's (and the reader's!) desire for some kind of
>transcendence, but at the bottom, they want to kill everyone with bad
>genes, and most of the people with good genes too.
>
>If there is something good and holy about the "cleansing" of Urth, it
>is not this "reproductive cycle" rationale.

I call bullshits.

>On 12/5/08, Son of Witz <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org> wrote:
>> I'm not sure it's really fair to call the rebirth of Urth/Ushas as eugenics.
>>
>> Urth XXII
>> "Don't you see? The Hierarchs and their Hierodules and the Hierogrammates too have been trying to let us become what we were. What we can be. Isn't that right, my lady? That's their justice, their whole reason for being. They bring us through the pain we brought them through. And " I could not complete the thought. The words had become iron on my lips.
>> Apheta said, "You in turn will make us go through what you did. I think you understand. But you" she looked to Gunnie "do not. Your race and ours are, perhaps, no more than each other's reproductive mechanisms. You are a woman, and so you say you produce your ovum so that there will someday be another woman. But your ovum would say it produces that woman so that someday there will be another ovum. We have wanted the New Sun to succeed as badly as he has wanted to himself. More urgently, in all truth. In saving your race he has saved ours; as we have saved ours of the future by saving yours."
>>
>> Here we have, yet again, the idea that the Amphisbaena symbolizes.
>> and yet again, its about a larger cycle of death and resurrection.
>> (remember, Severian sees the Ambhisbaena constellation - Into the Mountains - and at the Hierodules explain the nature of things to him, and they describe this Amphisbaena without using the word.)
>>
>> ~witz
>>
>>
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: David Stockhoff [mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net]
>> >Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 06:31 AM
>> >To: urth at lists.urth.net
>> >Subject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...
>> >
>> >John---
>> >
>> >I agree, and I especially like your formulation of "the kind of Messiah humanity deserves." That's why such a Bad Example as Severian can be Epitome. What Urth deserves is the whole point.
>> >
>> >Question: How do we know evacuation was feasible? I suppose the starsailship could have been used an infinite number of times to evacuate millions at a time via time travel, but I don't recall it being mentioned.
>> >
>> >Also, I have always simply assumed, in the absence of any direct evidence, that we are to regard all of humanity outside the Commonwealth as no longer really human---if the Ascians are any indication---and therefore no loss whatsoever, though they had an equal chance of surviving the Flood. But even if the Fountain is just a eugenics program, it's still complicated by a lack of information. Was the purpose to weed out those not worthy, and to decide whether the remainder were worthy?
>> >
>> >
>> >------------------------------
>> >
>> >Message: 5
>> >Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:50:41 -0500
>> >From: "John Watkins" <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
>> >Subject: Re: (urth) An Old mystery ...
>> >To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> >Message-ID:
>> >       <93d4039f0812041250v33a6d8b4x72bf8d2456b31269 at mail.gmail.com>
>> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> >
>> >* * *
>> >
>> >
>> >> > So, for me, the destruction of Urth to create Ushas is not a monstrous act.
>> >> > If there is no afterlife in New Sun, if the Increate isn't real (no matter
>> >> > how conscious his servants are of his wishes), then the destruction of Ushas
>> >> > is a brutal and monstrous one.  If the Increate is real, and there is some
>> >> > sort of Life of the Soul in the books (of which textual evidence you've
>> >> > asked for I would posit all of the discussion of the survival of Severian's
>> >> > 'personality' through so many types of death, and the corridors of time
>> >> > themsevles) then this act, the destruction of Urth, the 'hitting of the
>> >> > reset button' is no longer monstrous, but another instance of the Increate
>> >> > hitting the reset button like he did with Noah, or Sodom, or countless other
>> >> > examples.
>> >>
>> >
>> >My point isn't that there's no Life of the Soul in the Urth books--I
>> >think there pretty clearly is, at least of some sort.
>> >
>> >But that Life of the Soul seems wholly divorced from the flooding of
>> >Urth.  There is nothing literally redemptive about the destruction of
>> >Urth--it's just a big eugenics project, undertaken by artificial
>> >lifeforms who claim to be doing the will of God.  I think the
>> >comparison with Noah is much more apt than the comparison with the
>> >Second Coming, and maybe the reading that Severian is "the kind of
>> >Messiah humanity can produce," or maybe even "the kind of Messiah
>> >humanity deserves" is dead-on.
>> >
>> >I'll just reply to Son of Witz here as well:  if the Sun was dying for
>> >natural causes, or because of the actions of Typhon, and if there was
>> >no feasible way to evacuate Urth to other settled planets, and the
>> >destruction of Urth was the only way to cause this "long term
>> >resurrection," then I would agree that it is a "good thing" in the
>> >ultimate sense, and the casualties are unfortunately necessary.
>> >
>> >But we know, textually, that the Hierogrammates are behind the dying
>> >Sun, that there are other settled planets, and that evacuation was
>> >feasible.  The difference between an airlift and the flooding, other
>> >than the millions (billions?) of lives saved, is that it wouldn't
>> >advance the Hierogrammates' eugenic agenda.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >---
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>>
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