(urth) George R. R. Martin on Gene Wolfe

Daniel Otto Jack Petersen danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com
Tue Apr 28 12:14:29 PDT 2015


No love for the freshly hatched chick twixt Jolenta's chafing thighs?

That description scarred me as a child, to be fair.


Ha ha!  Well, I never said Wolfe hadn't created augmented babes or
anything.

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 7:52 PM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote:

> No love for the freshly hatched chick twixt Jolenta's chafing thighs?
>
> That description scarred me as a child, to be fair.
>
> On Tuesday, April 28, 2015, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen <
> danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Long Sun/Short Sun at least has some of my favourite female characters in
>> all fiction:  Nettle, Marble, Mucor, Olivine.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm  very bad with names.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 11:35 AM, aaron <aaronsingleton at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wow. If she engaged you, would think you'd remember her name.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 12:23 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Fair enough, Marc, but ... I honestly think there *is* a problem with
>>>>> Wolfe's female characters. The only one I can think of who actively engaged
>>>>> me _as a person_ (rather than as a foil for the [male] protagonist) was ...
>>>>> and I'm going to blank on her name ... in _The Land Across_. You know, her.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> One more thing I wanted to briefly reiterate, which I have said in
>>>>>> part in my videos, but I DO think some of the criticism aimed at Wolfe is
>>>>>> ideological in nature. When I think of an author objectifying women, I
>>>>>> think of Henry Miller calling all of them c#$ts and interested in them
>>>>>> purely for fleeting sexuality,of the same interest as a quarter on the
>>>>>> floor (slightly more interesting because he will pick up the quarter AFTER
>>>>>> he is done with the girl) ... but because of his bohemian, against "the
>>>>>> man", anti-restraint image, the discussion of his work rarely involves the
>>>>>> rampant denigration Wolfe's female characters get. For whatever reason, the
>>>>>> sophisticated readers who gravitate towards liberal arts programs tend to
>>>>>> be of a different political bent than someone who is more or less a
>>>>>> traditionalist, albeit an extremely eccentric genius of one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is an ideological bias in terms of public reception, most
>>>>>> certainly - though as far as a Hugo goes, as you said, Wolfe's difficulty
>>>>>> is reason enough, I think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Nick Lee <starwaterstrain at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://grrm.livejournal.com/424135.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Martin had a few kind words to say about Wolfe and the New Yorker
>>>>>>> piece. He also brought up the Hugos and the Puppies again. There's some
>>>>>>> irony in that, isn't there? The Puppies, both breeds, argue that
>>>>>>> conservative, religious authors don't have a chance with the Hugos because
>>>>>>> they've been "taken over" by a left-leaning, atheist conspiracy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They never bring up Wolfe, from what I've seen, and you would think
>>>>>>> he's the perfect example. He's obviously Catholic and conservative, to a
>>>>>>> degree. See arguments about this in the past of the List and recently on
>>>>>>> Reddit. He's never won a Hugo despite numerous other accolades. You would
>>>>>>> think he'd be their most damning evidence. So what gives?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I could make a snide comment here about how the Puppies probably
>>>>>>> couldn't understand Wolfe anyway, but despite the snark I think there's
>>>>>>> some truth in the idea. A corollary to the Puppy argument is that more
>>>>>>> traditional SF, adventure stories essentially, are not winning awards
>>>>>>> anymore. On one hand, Wolfe does write stories with adventure: knights,
>>>>>>> wizards, secret agents, etc. He's also been writing for a long time. He
>>>>>>> doesn't write simple stories, though, and while he pays frequent homage to
>>>>>>> the classics of the genre does not write in their style.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And what about those accolades? Wolfe has won numerous other awards;
>>>>>>> he's a Grand Master; other writers laud him frequently. In an interview
>>>>>>> from some time back, China Miéville noted Wolfe's talent while
>>>>>>> acknowledging a difference in political opinion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The reason Wolfe has never won a Hugo has nothing to do with his
>>>>>>> ideology and everything to do with the fact that he's a difficult writer.
>>>>>>> The fans vote for the Hugos, and they vote for what they're reading, most
>>>>>>> of which is more traditional and less literary than Wolfe's output.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wolfe is an embarrassing example for the Puppies because he doesn't
>>>>>>> fit into their narrative. I don't think he would play ball with them either
>>>>>>> because as Martin notes, he's "a class act."
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Urth Mailing List
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Aaron Singleton
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Otto Jack Petersen
>>
>
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-- 
Daniel Otto Jack Petersen
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