(urth) George R. R. Martin on Gene Wolfe

Tue Apr 28 11:52:39 PDT 2015

No love for the freshly hatched chick twixt Jolenta's chafing thighs?

That description scarred me as a child, to be fair.

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen <
danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:

> Long Sun/Short Sun at least has some of my favourite female characters in
> all fiction:  Nettle, Marble, Mucor, Olivine.
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','danldo at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
>> I'm  very bad with names.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 11:35 AM, aaron <aaronsingleton at gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','aaronsingleton at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>
>>> Wow. If she engaged you, would think you'd remember her name.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 12:23 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','danldo at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fair enough, Marc, but ... I honestly think there *is* a problem with
>>>> Wolfe's female characters. The only one I can think of who actively engaged
>>>> me _as a person_ (rather than as a foil for the [male] protagonist) was ...
>>>> and I'm going to blank on her name ... in _The Land Across_. You know, her.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com
>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','marcaramini at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> One more thing I wanted to briefly reiterate, which I have said in
>>>>> part in my videos, but I DO think some of the criticism aimed at Wolfe is
>>>>> ideological in nature. When I think of an author objectifying women, I
>>>>> think of Henry Miller calling all of them c#$ts and interested in them
>>>>> purely for fleeting sexuality,of the same interest as a quarter on the
>>>>> floor (slightly more interesting because he will pick up the quarter AFTER
>>>>> he is done with the girl) ... but because of his bohemian, against "the
>>>>> man", anti-restraint image, the discussion of his work rarely involves the
>>>>> rampant denigration Wolfe's female characters get. For whatever reason, the
>>>>> sophisticated readers who gravitate towards liberal arts programs tend to
>>>>> be of a different political bent than someone who is more or less a
>>>>> traditionalist, albeit an extremely eccentric genius of one.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is an ideological bias in terms of public reception, most
>>>>> certainly - though as far as a Hugo goes, as you said, Wolfe's difficulty
>>>>> is reason enough, I think.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Nick Lee <starwaterstrain at gmail.com
>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','starwaterstrain at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> http://grrm.livejournal.com/424135.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Martin had a few kind words to say about Wolfe and the New Yorker
>>>>>> piece. He also brought up the Hugos and the Puppies again. There's some
>>>>>> irony in that, isn't there? The Puppies, both breeds, argue that
>>>>>> conservative, religious authors don't have a chance with the Hugos because
>>>>>> they've been "taken over" by a left-leaning, atheist conspiracy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They never bring up Wolfe, from what I've seen, and you would think
>>>>>> he's the perfect example. He's obviously Catholic and conservative, to a
>>>>>> degree. See arguments about this in the past of the List and recently on
>>>>>> Reddit. He's never won a Hugo despite numerous other accolades. You would
>>>>>> think he'd be their most damning evidence. So what gives?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could make a snide comment here about how the Puppies probably
>>>>>> couldn't understand Wolfe anyway, but despite the snark I think there's
>>>>>> some truth in the idea. A corollary to the Puppy argument is that more
>>>>>> traditional SF, adventure stories essentially, are not winning awards
>>>>>> anymore. On one hand, Wolfe does write stories with adventure: knights,
>>>>>> wizards, secret agents, etc. He's also been writing for a long time. He
>>>>>> doesn't write simple stories, though, and while he pays frequent homage to
>>>>>> the classics of the genre does not write in their style.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And what about those accolades? Wolfe has won numerous other awards;
>>>>>> he's a Grand Master; other writers laud him frequently. In an interview
>>>>>> from some time back, China Miéville noted Wolfe's talent while
>>>>>> acknowledging a difference in political opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason Wolfe has never won a Hugo has nothing to do with his
>>>>>> ideology and everything to do with the fact that he's a difficult writer.
>>>>>> The fans vote for the Hugos, and they vote for what they're reading, most
>>>>>> of which is more traditional and less literary than Wolfe's output.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wolfe is an embarrassing example for the Puppies because he doesn't
>>>>>> fit into their narrative. I don't think he would play ball with them either
>>>>>> because as Martin notes, he's "a class act."
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> Aaron Singleton
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Daniel Otto Jack Petersen
>
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