(urth) resurrecting a 2002 thread that posits an alternative lineage for Sev

[Marc Aramini]

Certainly the repose of Cilinia/Scylla in what could be Sev's mausoleum is
at least one plausible bit of possibly coincidental evidence for Don's
position (for all that some people maintain it is a different mausoleum
...)

I still prefer Pia over ... Scylla ... as a sister for Sev, though, what
with the fish imagery of the lake people and Oannes and Sev swimming "like
a frog" in that scene, calling her like a sister in love to dorcas with her
hungry mouth, being exactly his age, having a thin waist unusual for an
autochthon and black hair, etc. Whatever - that sister talk gets old
quickly.
On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 12:58 PM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I just passed over a truly old discussion which never got much attention,
> but interests me for several reasons.  I think my response to Don's post
> was good, but it never received any further response.  Don posits that
> Typhon is Sev's father (I rather think he is Silk's, though I probably
> didn't realize that back in 2002).
>
> Here is Don't post, and below will be my answer from 2002.
>  >   Howdy y'all,
>
> >A few posts back, someone wrote that they wished there was a Book of
> Typhon
> >and a Book of Piaton.  Well, I don't know about the second but I'm
> beginning
> >to believe that the entire Sun Cycle might be the first.  I wonder if
> Typhon
> >(excluding Pas) is not the best concealed major character in fiction ever.
> >And while my reading of King Jesus pointed me in this direction (rightly
> or
> >wrongly),  I don't think it's necessary at all to my speculations.  On
> what?
> >Severian's ancestry, to start.
>     Let me start by saying flat out that I don't believe that Dorcas is
> >Severian's grandmother or that Ouen is his father.  To me, that is such a
> >big red herring that we could all eat fish taco's for a month.  It's
> always
> >bothered me and I'll state the simple reason why.  Incest.  I cannot
> believe
> >that Wolfe would have his main character commit incest, knowingly or
> >unknowingly, and especially without any good reason.  And there is no good
> >reason (unless you want to establish Severian as Antichrist, which I don't
> >believe) for Severian to sleep with his grandmother.  If she was his
> mother,
> >there's the Oedipus parallel.  If his sister, there's the marriage of
> >Pharaoh and his Sister (and other parallels I can't think of).  If his
> >daughter, there's the story of Noah.  If someone can point out a
> >mytho-symbolic instance of grandson-grandmother incest then I will rethink
> >this.  Otherwise I will never be convinced.
>     Especially when there are two better alternatives which fit much more
> >snugly into Severian's mythos.  There is the obvious Jesus parallel where
> >Joseph/Ouen is the "father" (though God is the real father) and
> >Mary/Katharine (which means "pure") is the virgin/pelerine mother.  There
> is
> >also the Arthurian parallel where Sir Hector is Arthur's "father" through
> >the intervention of Merlin/Inire? and the real father is Uther the King
> >(Monarch).  Either fit better than the Dorcas and Ouen alternative.
>     Before I get too deep into this, let me say that I have a lot of puzzle
> >pieces and a fair amount of them fit together, but I don't have a
> >comprehensive picture and I'm confused by some things.  Mainly I'm
> confused
> >by the relationship between Ymar and Severian, and because of this I'm
> >unable to make the precise connection I'd like between either Ymar and
> >Typhon or Severian and Typhon.  That said, I'm sure there is a strong
> >familial connection between the three and I'm equally sure that the Sun
> >Cycle is also a very complex dynastic novel in addition to it's other mind
> >boggling functions.  What I'm saying is any help would be appreciated.
> >    There are four things that tie Ymar to Severian strongly in my mind.
> >The first is that they are both sheltered by the Guild.  The second is
> that
> >they both go on to be Autarch and travel to Yesod.  Third is the anecdote
> >about Ymar following the dog (which I think is the real point of
> Severian's
> >relating it, in spite of his elaborate attempt to explicate it's meaning),
> >and the fourth is in Ymar's title: the Almost Just.  As in James the Just,
> >brother of Jesus.  I also discovered that ymar is supposedly Hebrew for
> ox,
> >though I have no idea what relevance that has.
>     One or both of them is Typhon's son.  My reasoning for this is in the
> >Tale of a Boy Called Frog.  In this tale, Spring Wind/typhoon/Typhon
> fathers
> >twin sons with a princess whose father had given her over to an order of
> >virgin priestesses (hmmm?).  I would add that Spring Wind is the son of
> >Early Summer and the juice of a red flower (fire? a rose? the old sun?)
> "No,
> >I was not born as I am, or born at all, as you meant it."    The sons are
> >set adrift on a stream (the brook madregot?) One of the sons is taken in
> by
> >wolves and sheltered by the Black Killer (the Guild?) and goes on to rule.
> >"Here is the red flower.  In his name I rule."  Severian's coat of arms
> >contains the red flower, as does the mausoleum of his boyhood.  This
> implies
> >some sort of dynastic tie between the two.  And Severian's memorial stone
> in
> >"Urth" says "by Right the First Man of Urth"  By right of what?  No one
> >knows whether he's the one to bring the New Sun.  Maybe it's by right of
> >blood, by his tie to the Monarch.
> >>My problem is, is this Severian the story is talking about or is it Ymar?
> >Are they brothers?  Are they the same person?  Is one a clone of the
> other?
> >If Severian is this son then it seems likely that Katharine and Kypris are
> >one and the same.  If Ymar is the son then Kypris is surely his mother.
> My
> >pet theory is that Ymar is Typhon's son and Severian is his (Ymar's)
> clone.
> >This allows Katharine to give a virgin birth and allows Severian to be his
> >own father.  This dynastic theory also meshes nicely with Greek mythology,
> >which as Peter Green states in his introduction to Apollonius of Rhodes
> >Argonautica (univ. of california press, p.22) ". . . has as background a
> >complex genealogical web of intertwined family relationships. . ."
>     Whatever the answer, the one thing I am absolutely positive of is that
> >Dorcas is in no way an immediate member of Severian's family.  Which
> brings
> >another question.  Does he know his ancestry? (I think yes.  Valeria most
> >likely told him.)  If he does, why is he hiding it?
>
> >Don
>
> And my brilliant, but youthful, response:
>
> In a previous post, Don asserted that he sees little need for Dorcas to be
> a
> familial relation of Severian's.  I argue that it is imperative that she
> be a
> member of his line:  her love is a distorted version of motherly love that
> is
> the most redeeming love in the text outside of divinity.
>
> I argue that, as Gene Wolfe has stated, in some small part the story of
> Severian is the story of a man looking for love.  I think that Wolfe is a
> careful enough writer to show that these females (whatever you think of
> them)
> are symbolic of something other than themselves.  In the text, first you
> have
> an ideal of beauty that you covet (Thea), then you have the prostitute -
> the
> easiest form of "love" for a young boy to get with a little cash - that
> mirrors a desire (that mirrors another desire).
>
> Then you have a wiser, older mentor (Thecla).  Then the femme fetale in
> the
> form of Agia - conniving, plain outside and ugly inside - then you have
> the
> most redeeming love of the text - one that must be explored in the same
> sexual
> metaphor that Wolfe uses to explore all the others - the most versatile
> form
> of love (note the changing flowers in dorcas' hair - she is the only one
> who
> can change her flowers if we associate Thecla with the death lillies and
> Agia
> with the Avern) - that of the mother figure.  It is a tension between
> sexual
> desire and the need to be protected from the external environment - and
> notice
> how Dorcas changes Sev's perceptions of the outside world by having him
> feel
> her up, presenting him with the archetypal symbol of safety - the breast.
> That's pretty motherly.  Then we have false vanity, teasing, and
> uppitiness
> (Jolenta).  Later we get an exploration of adultery (Cyriaca), then an
> exploration of slavery/ bondage in the form of Pia, and perhaps one of
> buggery
> with little Sev. (but probably not)  Finally this culminates in frigid,
> banal
> marriage with a haughty wench that leaves everybody feeling bad, so one
> might
> as well go to the stars to be castrated.
>
> In many ways, the text is an exhaustion of the possibilities of happiness
> through either feminine spirituality or sexuality (you've noticed all
> those
> evil feminine goddesses and cults lurking in the text, Don). Love, to a
> young
> man, might seem to be best embodied by someone in the image of his mother,
> but
> even that should be shunned for something a bit more redemptive and
> spiritual,
> as Severian ultimately does.  I think Dorcas needs to be maternal, and
> Severian's symbolic incest is not contrary to Wolfe's intentions, for the
> thematic consistency of the book relies on all of these various roles
> offering
> nothing but a vacuous relief from lust and desire in the form of a
> grasping,
> new hatched chick hungry to devour the world.  (At least, I think so).
>
> Marc Aramini
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20140920/0f521157/attachment-0003.htm>