(urth) Tzadkiel's form

[Marc Aramini]

Of course in the Ash/Ask myths, he was the first man rather than the last.

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 7:11 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote:

> Another thing from Eschatology and Genesis that strikes the reader is that
> the Autarch is confused with God by Meschia.  I think this is definitely
> part of the confusion between Christ, the Conciliator, and Sev that we get
> in New Sun (but not Urth) - bleeding from the forehead, water to wine,
> resurrections, etc.  Even though the autarch is not played by Sev in that
> scene and when the end comes Valeria is the ruler, I think the play
> diffuses throughout New Sun in its implications.
>
> Also, the last man's name of Ash (teutonic Ask) whose wife Embla had a
> name which meant vine.  They were supposedly created from a dead tree and
> its dead parasite by Odin and crew. Which leads me to believe that both
> futures came true simultaneously, somehow. [the trees and lianas of Green]
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 6:55 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Speaking of Hercules ....
>>
>> Romulus and Remus (Frog and Fish) are in one story fathered by Mars and
>> in another by Heracles, by the way, which might tie in to Nessus - in every
>> version a servant is tasked with killing them and places them in a basket
>> to let them go downstream instead, though.  Mars' birth was to Juno alone -
>> Flora attained a magic flower to impregnate her.  I can't believe there was
>> argument on the list about Spring Wind being Mars, whose ceremonies are
>> primarily in March.  Making it a red flower is Wolfe's innovation, I think,
>> that links the story to fire (and perhaps the sun) in the tale of Frog and
>> Fish.
>>
>> The problem is that there are two origin stories for the monster Typhon,
>> too.  In one he is born of Mother Earth and Tartaros, in the other ... he
>> springs from Hera (who is Juno) alone, without a father, just as Mars did
>> from her.  Perhaps there is a conflation in the story between Mars and
>> Typhon, which would be unfortunate.
>>
>> The fish association with the lake island people is very strong - they
>> have the god Oannes and fish is continually mentioned as the motivation for
>> the strife between the shore people and the floating island folk of Pia.
>> When Severian is captured by the shore people, he cannonballs and into the
>> water to activate the incendiary bullets on the boat and then swims upward
>> like a frog (which is what Mowgli's name is supposed to mean). [Pia is his
>> age, has dark hair and a slender waist, and in love is like a "sister" to
>> Dorcas]
>>
>> The battle between Baldanders and the Severian is actually referred to in
>> the embedded tales in at least three places as well as the dream in which
>> the little stick figures are submerged after their weapons break.  In the
>> Story of Frog and Fish, when Frog is challenged as a true man, the large
>> Shere Khan smilodon character (the butcher?) starts to challenge the
>> he-wolf who adopts Frog, and he is much bigger and stronger (he is burned
>> by the fire Frog identifies as the Red Flower when he steals Frog from his
>> real family)
>>
>> In Eschatology and Genesis when Nod engages the autarch, there are two
>> demons present who indicate that the seed must be destroyed - and while
>> Ossipago et al are three in number, one of them is different than the
>> others - a robotic servant. Even the tale of the Student and His Son, with
>> its naval battle, echoes the battle between Severian and Baldanders (though
>> it is the least related, with the naviscaput matching the description of
>> the thing coming down the river giving instructions at the end of Citadel
>> of the Autarch.
>>
>> It is very very unfortunate that Typhon and Mars are possibly both born
>> of Hera/Juno without a father, but then again ... Typhon does say "No, I
>> was not born as I am, or born at all, as you meant it."
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Given Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a
>>>
>>> stretch that he is associated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on
>>>
>>> Urth. My guess is that, in parallel to the Biblical story, all of the
>>> monsters fallen
>>>
>>> to Urth originated as mutineers from Tzadkiel's  Ship. By name alone,
>>> this would
>>>
>>> include Typhon.
>>>
>>>
>>> >Jeffrey Wilson: This would explain Typhon's rapid apprehension of the
>>> time displaced
>>> >Conciliator, but other Hellenic names do *not* relate to Ship-sailors,
>>> >Nessus for one.
>>>
>>>
>>> I find Wolfe's usage of the name "Nessus" to be multi-layered
>>> brilliance. First it is a
>>>
>>> plausible derivation of the name "Buenos Aires", the geographical and
>>> literary (Borges)
>>>
>>> model for the city of Nessus.
>>>
>>>
>>> Next,  Buenos Aires mean "good air" or "fresh breezes" but "Nessus"
>>> invokes the concept
>>>
>>> of poison. A not-so-subtle commentary on the effects of long history,
>>> overpopulation and
>>>
>>> technology.
>>>
>>>
>>> Finally, Nessus invokes the Greek story of Heracles, whom I find to be a
>>> surprisingly apt
>>>
>>> model for Severian. Like Heracles, Severian is born of mysterious
>>> ancestry who finds
>>>
>>> himself endowed with divine power but spends his life being pushed into
>>> dangers and
>>>
>>> arduous tasks because of godly politics from above which manipulate him
>>> without he
>>>
>>> being able to clearly understand why. And, of course, ultimately both
>>> Heracles and
>>>
>>> Severian are elevated to godhood themselves. In a sense, Nessus can
>>> represent the
>>>
>>> poisoned cloak that both Heracles and Severian had to shed before their
>>> ultimate
>>>
>>> elevation.
>>>
>>>
>>> (Chicago is a long-time, densely populated, multi-cultural city full of
>>> all the positives and
>>>
>>> negatives that any large city provides. I often wonder how much living
>>> in the proximity
>>>
>>> affected Wolfe and his writing)
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>>
>>
>
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