(urth) resurrecting a 2002 thread that posits an alternative lineage for Sev

Mon Oct 6 12:53:41 PDT 2014

No dia 06/10/2014, às 19:41, "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <danldo at gmail.com> escreveu:

> Antonio, it was this:
> 
> > Christ the man performed miracles through his faith in God, 
> > nothing else. That is, Christ's ability to perform miracles wasn't
> > in any way different from that of his disciples, who also performed
> > them through faith in God.
> 
> While I can see in looking back that you are not saying "He isn't God," it sure looked to me like you were - the next line even more so:
> 
> > Christ wasn't able to perform miracles because he was God,
> > but because of his faith in God. He also prayed, while we're at it!
> 
> Can you see where I might have thought "not because he was God" meant "he was not God?" I could have read more carefully ... bu t I think you could have written it a bit more carefully also.

I think if I meant what you read I'd have to put in a parenthetical '(which he wasn't)'. You are correct in that my phrasing is suboptimal, but I don't see how to improve on it other than rewriting it all. On the other hand, the issue itself of the divinity of Christ was completely absent from my mind when I wrote that, so I wasn't trying to be cautious in regard to it. I was merely concerned with what i think is an important point about the miracles themselves. 

> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 11:35 AM, António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dan'l, I don't know where you're getting my presentation of Catholic/Orthodox theology from, but your 'wrong' is wrong - where exactly did I say anything about the issue you mention here? (I have said plenty about it, but not, I think, on this forum, much less 'wrong').
> 
> Mmmmm - could it be the way you parsed 'wasn't...because he was God'? I thought it was clear in context. I don't know how to be more clear without major rewriting. 
> (For the record, my 'was' is merely because I'm referring to a specific time in the past. It has no implications outside.)
> 
> No dia 06/10/2014, às 18:54, "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <danldo at gmail.com> escreveu:
> 
>> Antonio, I don't know where you're getting your Catholic/Orthodox theology, but it's wrong. Both churches clearly teach (cf. http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html) that Jesus Christ was God, the Son, begotten of the Father, true God from true God, but *also* fully human: twi-natured.
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:14 AM, António Marques <entonio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Christ the man performed miracles through his faith in God, nothing else. That is, Christ's ability to perform miracles wasn't in any way different from that of his disciples, who also performed them through faith in God. That is straight, orthodox (and Orthodox), Catholic teaching, or should I say dogma. Christ wasn't able to perform miracles because he was God, but because of his faith in God. He also prayed, while we're at it!
>> 
>> On 2 October 2014 15:39, Matthew Weber <palaeologos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Through faith in what, Himself?
>> 
>> Christ is a hypostasis of divinity and humanity.  It's correct to say that his power is not magical (i.e. granted him by some other, more powerful agency).  It is no more magical than my power to use my arm to lift a cup of coffee to my mouth so I can drink it.  My power to do so is inherent, as is Christ's to perform signs.
>> 
>> Insofar as Wolfe is an orthodox RC, it can be assumed that this is what he believes as well.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:14 AM, António Marques <entonio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> And Christ performed miracles through faith, not by the use of some magical power belonging to himself.
>> 
>> On 2 October 2014 15:04, Brad Henry <bradhenry101 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> And part of catholic teaching is that saints are not simply 'controlled by christ' in their working of miracles (many saints have performed miracles like severian') but they are in the process of 'theosis' (or, sometimes called 'divination'), being made into gods, that culminates in their resurrection to immortality. It is a christian quip: "God became man, so that man might become (a) god." The traditional biblical cite for this is 2 Peter 1.3-4. 
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is obvious, but for me the miracles make him pretty explicitly a Judeo-Christian wonderworker/savior with a little sin and torture thrown in for good measure (bleeding from the forehead when he sees the many eye-winged butterfly, turning water to wine, resurrecting the dead, healing, carrying a huge cross shaped torture device which is occasionally planted in the ground, being tempted by Satan almost verbatim (but never, say, transforming into an animal like a Pagan god)) - my earliest impression when I was a young boy was not that he was a normal person but a Christ.  The pagan gods are the unnatural creatures in New Sun whose mythologies are incorporated and transformed into Christian stories [such as the flood and the story of Genesis]. (At least throughout The Book of the New Sun).
>> 
>> I never fancied Sev ordinary. While clearly Wolfe loves playing with mythical creatures, the importance of his Catholicism to his works shouldn't be understated. 
>> 
>> On Thursday, October 2, 2014, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 7:35 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Severian is a (pagan) god. He has a presentiment of it at the beginning of his story but by the end
>> 
>> of Citadel, we are meant to understand that he was The Conciliator and he will be The New Sun.
>> 
>> 
>> By the end of Urth of the New Sun we also understand that in addition to his superhuman healing
>> 
>> powers, he was also worshipped as Apu Punchau, he can breathe underwater, he can travel through time
>> 
>>  he is immortal (though not invulnerable), and at the very end he once again finds himself worshipped as
>> 
>> a god.
>> 
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>> -- 
>> Matt +
>> 
>> For all that nature by her mother wit
>> Could frame in earth.
>>     Edmund Spenser (1552-1599), The Faerie Queene [1590], bk. IV [1596], canto 10, st. 21
>> 
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>> -- 
>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
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> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
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