(urth) resurrecting a 2002 thread that posits an alternative lineage for Sev

Mon Oct 6 11:41:46 PDT 2014

Antonio, it was this:

> Christ the man performed miracles through his faith in God,
> nothing else. That is, Christ's ability to perform miracles wasn't
> in any way different from that of his disciples, who also performed
> them through faith in God.

While I can see in looking back that you are not saying "He isn't God," it
sure looked to me like you were - the next line even more so:

> Christ wasn't able to perform miracles because he was God,
> but because of his faith in God. He also prayed, while we're at it!

Can you see where I might have thought "not because he was God" meant "he
was not God?" I could have read more carefully ... bu t I think you could
have written it a bit more carefully also.

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 11:35 AM, António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dan'l, I don't know where you're getting my presentation of
> Catholic/Orthodox theology from, but your 'wrong' is wrong - where exactly
> did I say anything about the issue you mention here? (I have said plenty
> about it, but not, I think, on this forum, much less 'wrong').
>
> Mmmmm - could it be the way you parsed 'wasn't...because he was God'? I
> thought it was clear in context. I don't know how to be more clear without
> major rewriting.
> (For the record, my 'was' is merely because I'm referring to a specific
> time in the past. It has no implications outside.)
>
> No dia 06/10/2014, às 18:54, "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <danldo at gmail.com>
> escreveu:
>
> Antonio, I don't know where you're getting your Catholic/Orthodox
> theology, but it's wrong. Both churches clearly teach (cf.
> http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html) that Jesus Christ was God,
> the Son, begotten of the Father, true God from true God, but *also* fully
> human: twi-natured.
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:14 AM, António Marques <entonio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Christ the man performed miracles through his faith in God, nothing else.
>> That is, Christ's ability to perform miracles wasn't in any way different
>> from that of his disciples, who also performed them through faith in God.
>> That is straight, orthodox (and Orthodox), Catholic teaching, or should I
>> say dogma. Christ wasn't able to perform miracles because he was God, but
>> because of his faith in God. He also prayed, while we're at it!
>>
>> On 2 October 2014 15:39, Matthew Weber <palaeologos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Through faith in what, Himself?
>>>
>>> Christ is a hypostasis of divinity and humanity.  It's correct to say
>>> that his power is not magical (i.e. granted him by some other, more
>>> powerful agency).  It is no more magical than my power to use my arm to
>>> lift a cup of coffee to my mouth so I can drink it.  My power to do so is
>>> inherent, as is Christ's to perform signs.
>>>
>>> Insofar as Wolfe is an orthodox RC, it can be assumed that this is what
>>> he believes as well.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 7:14 AM, António Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And Christ performed miracles through faith, not by the use of some
>>>> magical power belonging to himself.
>>>>
>>>> On 2 October 2014 15:04, Brad Henry <bradhenry101 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And part of catholic teaching is that saints are not simply
>>>>> 'controlled by christ' in their working of miracles (many saints have
>>>>> performed miracles like severian') but they are in the process of 'theosis'
>>>>> (or, sometimes called 'divination'), being made into gods, that culminates
>>>>> in their resurrection to immortality. It is a christian quip: "God became
>>>>> man, so that man might become (a) god." The traditional biblical cite for
>>>>> this is 2 Peter 1.3-4.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 9:47 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is obvious, but for me the miracles make him pretty explicitly a
>>>>>> Judeo-Christian wonderworker/savior with a little sin and torture thrown in
>>>>>> for good measure (bleeding from the forehead when he sees the many
>>>>>> eye-winged butterfly, turning water to wine, resurrecting the dead,
>>>>>> healing, carrying a huge cross shaped torture device which is occasionally
>>>>>> planted in the ground, being tempted by Satan almost verbatim (but never,
>>>>>> say, transforming into an animal like a Pagan god)) - my earliest
>>>>>> impression when I was a young boy was not that he was a normal person but a
>>>>>> Christ.  The pagan gods are the unnatural creatures in New Sun whose
>>>>>> mythologies are incorporated and transformed into Christian stories [such
>>>>>> as the flood and the story of Genesis]. (At least throughout The Book of
>>>>>> the New Sun).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I never fancied Sev ordinary. While clearly Wolfe loves playing with
>>>>>> mythical creatures, the importance of his Catholicism to his works
>>>>>> shouldn't be understated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, October 2, 2014, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 7:35 AM, David Stockhoff <
>>>>>>> dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Severian is a (pagan) god. He has a presentiment of it at the
>>>>>>> beginning of his story but by the end
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of Citadel, we are meant to understand that he was The Conciliator
>>>>>>> and he will be The New Sun.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By the end of Urth of the New Sun we also understand that in
>>>>>>> addition to his superhuman healing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> powers, he was also worshipped as Apu Punchau, he can breathe
>>>>>>> underwater, he can travel through time
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  he is immortal (though not invulnerable), and at the very end he
>>>>>>> once again finds himself worshipped as
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a god.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Matt +
>>>
>>> For all that nature by her mother wit
>>> Could frame in earth.
>>>     Edmund Spenser (1552-1599), *The Faerie Queene [1590], bk. IV
>>> [1596], canto 10, st. 21*
>>>
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>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>
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-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
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