(urth) The Wizard

[Daniel Petersen]

Yes, He had some nice moments. It was nice when he didn't make Abraham kill
his

son and nice how he saved Noah's family and some animals when the rest of
earth had

to die. (please forgive a little cynicism ;- )) Yes he was tender and
fatherly at

times.

Excellent progress, Lee.  Your theology is showing the first signs of
nuance.  (I'm on a cheeky roll, forgive me.)  I read the OT opposite to
your cynicism and see the intermittent divine punishments through the lense
of the constant, continual, consistent emphasis on God's eternal goodness,
grace, mercy, and justice - these divine attributes are proclaimed,
demonstrated, and indicated as the basis of Israel's morality (e.g. mercy
toward slaves and outsiders enhsrined in the Law).  If God did indeed
command all the inhabitants of Canaan to be put to death to make way for
Israel, then I have to assume there is a justice in this I may not readily
see.  (And it was *only* in the Canaan instance - people often talk as if
the OT story is one unmitigated tale of God-ordained genocide - WRONG!)
For example, the account says God gave the Canaanite peoples about five
centuries to repent and change their ways (e.g. to stop murdering their
children as sacrifices to idols, cease oppressing their women and men with
temple prostitution, etc.) before he ordered Israel to eradicate them.  You
just can't reasonably construe that as arbitrary divine tyrranny - it is
totally consistent with the 'Genesis to Revelation' emphasis on God
heartily desiring the wicked to repent and be saved.  Furthermore, I can
only reason from my premises (that God as portrayed in the OT is only just
and good) that any 'innocent' (or rather, God-fearing) persons from that
nation who were killed in their eradication by the Israelites went on to
their 'reward' even though they had to suffer execution in this life due to
the overall hardened-to-the-point-of-no-return wickedness of their society
(hardened by their own wills long before God may have done any
'confirmation' hardening, as was the case in the Pharaoh scenario if you
read it carefully - Pharaoh hardens his own heart first in the narrative).
Thus, on my understanding, any 'good' Canaanites that sadly had to die (and
it was sad that the 'wicked' ones had to die too, even - nay,
*especially*- to God) are now with their Maker and Saviour in eternal,
unmitigated
glory and joy and are NOT complaining that God is unjust (unlike we, who
are still behind the 'veil of tears', are chronically tempted to do.)  Lee,
I'm not 'comfortable' with my reading of the Bible because I take that as a
sign that the reading is not very supple or subtle or defeasible and open
to revision.  I once again recommend you have done with comfort in theology
and hermeneutics and join the dance!  (Er, dang - guess that would make it
an 'interpretive dance' - didn't mean to go there.)

ANYWAY, that's probably the last time I'll try to enumerate any defense of
the OT God being as merciful and good as the NT God here.  I don't want
to take this discussion board too far off topic.  It's utterly relevant to
Wolfe's view of God worked out in his fiction, but it would take a closer
tracking between Bible and Solar Cycle (for example) to keep things
Wolfe-relevant.  I'm not prepared to do that at this time.  I'm very happy
to have this more general theological discussion with Lee or anyone else in
a proper forum for it (if I had time personally, that is).  It's well worth
having.  I hope maybe what I (and some others) have said can help at least
some people think twice before they make sweeping Dawkinsian
generalisations about these matters based on utterly unsophisticated
readings of OT/NT.  (Again, I'm not trying to insult or  bully, but I think
the point needs to be made sharply for the sake of perspicuity, not to
mention perspicacity.)

All of this is very relevant to Wolfe's fiction also in regard to allowing
a text to do what it does rather than reading so much of one's own agenda
into it so as to mangle it.  Again, I don't try to make Dan Simmons's texts
something other than what are often rather overtly atheist texts.  Nor do I
try to make Ursula Le Guin's texts something other than overtly
anarcho-taoist texts.  I let them preach their sermons to me because I find
much of their art so enjoyable and enriching and we share that in common.
Whilst being challenged by their artistically enfleshed worldviews I may
find elements of their works that I think actually favour my own view
better.  But I would be completely clear that when making such observations
I have at that point manifestly stepped outside of what those authors done
and taken things in directions their texts do not, on their own rationale,
indicate.  Let's do the same with Wolfe I suggest.  (And this isn't about
'sensibilities' towards people's beliefs and so on - it's about quality
literary analysis.)

-DOJP


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 11:50 PM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> >Antonio Pedro Marques: I actually find these two [Mo Holkar's] paragraphs
>
> >excellent in conveying the idea.
>
>
>
> I agree. And I find Dan'l's earlier, similar post expressing thing almost
>
> exactly as I would express my own personal views.
>
>
>
> Clearly, Wolfe is also very aware of the human bias aspect to religious
>
> reporting. But I am continually haunted by his blunt assertions that
>
> he believes the pagan gods to be real. I gather from this he doesn't
>
> just mean that all pagan gods are based on mythologized human rulers. I
>
> get the sense he doesn't think the ancients were as smart and perceptive
> as;
>
> we are.  And that when they report on superhuman personages they were
> reporting
>
> accurately. Where they saw a god throwing a thunderbolt we might report
> him as a
>
> giant alien shooting a ray gun. But it wasn't just some king holding a
> shiny sword.
>
>
>
>
>
> Likewise for the early Old Testament. The events occurring there seem too
>
> aligned with the mythology of other cultures to dismiss one of them as
>
> real and the others as fake.  Like Daniel I think Wolfe is more inclined to
>
> take the words of the Bible at face value than some of the rest of us. This
>
> includes miracles and sorcery and even angels wielding flaming swords.
>
>
>
> >Daniel Petersen: my passionate response to you is from a
> >desire to see a* good reading* of the Bible and theology.  And, brother,
> >you should not be 'comfortable' with your reading of the Hebrew
> Scriptures.
> > Of course I see the war and genocide in the Old Testament, but do
> >*you*see all the grace and mercy that are there from beginning to end?
>
>
>
> Don't worry I am very comfortable with my reading and understanding of the
>
> Bible and it sounds like you are too, so that is good. We can discuss it
> then
>
> without fear of offending.
>
>
>
> The point I am making is not just that they had war and genocide and human
>
> sacrifice going on in the OT. It is that these things were reported as
> being
>
> the result of direct commands from God. God doesn't say "all other gods are
>
> fake". He says he is a jealous god and no other gods shall be taken before
> him.
>
>
>
> Yes, He had some nice moments. It was nice when he didn't make Abraham
> kill his
>
> son and nice how he saved Noah's family and some animals when the rest of
> earth had
>
> to die. (please forgive a little cynicism ;- )) Yes he was tender and
> fatherly at
>
> times. But I don't see how this mix of violence and compassion is much
> different
>
> than say Zeus or Apollo. To me the OT God and his emotions smack of
> superhumanity,
>
> like a pagan god, more than a pure deity as I see the NT God.
>
>
>
>
>
> Perhaps the reality is that the OT/NT change was not in God but in the
> people who are
>
> writing the holy books. But I don't think this is what Wolfe is showing in
> the
>
> Sun Series. Everything in the Sun Series seems more pagan, pre-Christian
> earth
>
> to me. There are superhuman and supersized beings who interact directly
> with humans, and
>
> are thus (unlike The Increate) capable of change and evolution.
>
>
>
> For example we have Pas, a false god who is broken into pieces and
> reformed into various
>
> beings associated with the Outsider, a true god.  Sure we see the
> precursors to
>
> Christianity on Urth and Blue and in the Whorl. Just as there are
> Christian precursors
>
> in Greek, Roman and pagan/gnostic mythology.
>
>
>
> As Dionysus was precursor to Christ on earth, so I think The Outsider and
> Silk are
>
> the  precursors to Blue/Urth's version of Christianity. We see the signs
> that He is
>
> coming but in the narrative we are given, He has not yet arrived.
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