(urth) The Wizard

[Antonin Scriabin]

"But it's not all subjective, right?"

A case can be made that it *is* all subjective, because we can never know
the author's motives, but that seems like a petty objection (that, of
course, leads to more petty objections for which we can thank
postmodernism). [?]  I just think talking about "primary" vs. "other" and
"lesser"  allusions is just an odd way to think about a work of fiction;
especially when people use phrases like "an allusion to" as code for "this
part of the text *means*".  It is one thing to trace allusions, and another
to draw grandiose conclusions about Christ having been in one universe or
another, etc.  I think it reads a bit too much into the books, and that if
we didn't already know going in that Wolfe was a Catholic, we wouldn't be
making these conclusion.  It is only because we know he *is* a devout
Catholic that we put more emphasis on the Christian allusions than the
pagan ones.  And I *highly* doubt the knowledge that Wolfe is Catholic is a
key part of the "literary analysis toolkit" he wants us to bring to his
works.

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Daniel Petersen <
danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:

> Aw, come on, guys.  It's not too hard to know which is 'primary' for
> Wolfe.  And that doesn't have to take away from the enjoyment of reading
> for those who disagree with Wolfe.  I don't try to press atheist writers
> into a non-atheist reading when I know that's 'primary' for them.  It is,
> of course, legitimate to play on those 'secondary' possibilities and
> resonances if that's what interests you more.  But it's not all subjective,
> right?
>
> -DOJP
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> > Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as "primary" might say more
>> about who we are
>>
>> than what is clear in the books.
>>
>> Couldn't agree more, and I might add that this is one of the reasons I so
>> enjoy Wolfe.  It is one thing to just stuff a story full of clever
>> allusions and references, it is quite another to do so and yet create a
>> world rich with potential, that gets readers to think and conjure up their
>> own interpretations and inferences.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> >Dan'l Danehey-Oakes:  Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but clearly
>>> the Christian
>>> >allusions are primary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as "primary" might say more
>>> about who we are
>>>
>>> than what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and
>>> Christianity are
>>>
>>> both there. So which is more important?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see
>>> it, the references
>>>
>>> to Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ
>>> himself. There are
>>>
>>> roods and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of
>>> the eucharist and
>>>
>>> sermons and confessions and so on.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. I see no
>>> christian salvation
>>>
>>> offered by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The
>>> Outsider. All  these
>>>
>>> guys seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation means
>>> surviving. Moving
>>>
>>> to a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like
>>> that
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And
>>> perhaps the difference
>>>
>>> between the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New
>>> Testament God. Moses led
>>>
>>> the chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely new
>>> plane of existence.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wolfe talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe
>>> than our own and I
>>>
>>> think this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a
>>> futuristic gnostic
>>>
>>> monster and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has
>>> already appeared.
>>> Once Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an
>>> option. An option
>>>
>>> seemingly unavailable to anyone in Briah.
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>>
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