"But it's not all subjective, right?"<br><br>A case can be made that it <i>is</i> all subjective, because we can never know the author's motives, but that seems like a petty objection (that, of course, leads to more petty objections for which we can thank postmodernism). <img goomoji="349" style="margin: 0pt 0.2ex; vertical-align: middle;" src="cid:349@goomoji.gmail"> I just think talking about "primary" vs. "other" and "lesser" allusions is just an odd way to think about a work of fiction; especially when people use phrases like "an allusion to" as code for "this part of the text <i>means</i>". It is one thing to trace allusions, and another to draw grandiose conclusions about Christ having been in one universe or another, etc. I think it reads a bit too much into the books, and that if we didn't already know going in that Wolfe was a Catholic, we wouldn't be making these conclusion. It is only because we know he <i>is</i> a devout Catholic that we put more emphasis on the Christian allusions than the pagan ones. And I <i>highly</i> doubt the knowledge that Wolfe is Catholic is a key part of the "literary analysis toolkit" he wants us to bring to his works.<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:35 AM, Daniel Petersen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:danielottojackpetersen@gmail.com">danielottojackpetersen@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Aw, come on, guys. It's not too hard to know which is 'primary' for Wolfe. And that doesn't have to take away from the enjoyment of reading for those who disagree with Wolfe. I don't try to press atheist writers into a non-atheist reading when I know that's 'primary' for them. It is, of course, legitimate to play on those 'secondary' possibilities and resonances if that's what interests you more. But it's not all subjective, right?<br>
<br>-DOJP<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Antonin Scriabin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kierkegaurdian@gmail.com" target="_blank">kierkegaurdian@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>> Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as "primary" might say more about who we are<br>
<br>
than what is clear in the books.<br><br></div>Couldn't agree more, and I might add that this is one of the reasons I so enjoy Wolfe. It is one thing to just stuff a story full of clever allusions and references, it is quite another to do so and yet create a world rich with potential, that gets readers to think and conjure up their own interpretations and inferences.<div>
<div><br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 5, 2012 at 10:01 PM, Lee Berman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:severiansola@hotmail.com" target="_blank">severiansola@hotmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
>Dan'l Danehey-Oakes: Not to agree with Gerry or anything, but clearly the Christian<br>
>allusions are primary.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Perhaps we can all agree that what we see as "primary" might say more about who we are<br>
<br>
than what is clear in the books. Allusions to pagan mythology and Christianity are<br>
<br>
both there. So which is more important?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The pagan and gnostic references do seem more primary to me. As I see it, the references<br>
<br>
to Christianity are about the trappings of the church, not Christ himself. There are<br>
<br>
roods and gammdions and signs of addition. There are various forms of the eucharist and<br>
<br>
sermons and confessions and so on.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
There is even a guy who resembles Jesus. But I see no Christ. I see no christian salvation<br>
<br>
offered by anyone; not Severian, not Silk, not SilkHorn, not even The Outsider. All these<br>
<br>
guys seem to offer is material salvation not spiritual. Salvation means surviving. Moving<br>
<br>
to a different planet or having your planet reformed or something like that<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
And that is the differece between, say, Moses and Jesus Christ. And perhaps the difference<br>
<br>
between the brutal Old Testament demiurge and the forgiving New Testament God. Moses led<br>
<br>
the chosen to a Promised Land. Christ led (and leads) to an entirely new plane of existence.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Wolfe talks about the Sun Series taking place in an alternate universe than our own and I<br>
<br>
think this is the reason he needed that device. He could not build a futuristic gnostic<br>
<br>
monster and horror filled world in a universe where Jesus Christ has already appeared.<br>
Once Christ has been here, that's it. Christian salvation becomes an option. An option<br>
<br>
seemingly unavailable to anyone in Briah.<br>
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