(urth) [BGSpam]Re: Typhon's nature

[David Stockhoff]

On 10/14/2011 6:11 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
> *From:* David Stockhoff <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>
> > On 10/14/2011 12:49 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
>
> > > > If I ruled worlds with all those tools you list, and then you 
> found out
> > > > I was psionic (without using a psionic helmet), would that not 
> strike
> > > > you as significant?
> >
> > > Not really, if psychic powers are reasonably common.
> >
> > So, emphatically yes (because they are not).
> >
> Aren’t they? Decuman seems to have them. So does Mucor. The Cumaean 
> has. In Typhon’s time, there was a telepathic internet.
In my example, I am not a character living in Briah.
>
> > > > What if I boasted of these powers?
> > > > What if I claimed (or hinted at) them but had none?
> > > I don’t see evidence that Typhon did either of those things.
> > "I sent my thought to far places." Jeff says this may be bombast.
> > However, in the light of what has been mentioned about Urth society
> > before the Whorl, Typhon may have been speaking as he would if his
> > society still existed, which would put a different spin on it. We might
> > say, "I googled it and found 7637542 hits."
> It’s not bombast: what Typhon says is true, there are powers in the 
> sea who would rule. Whatever he did to find out, he did something and 
> it worked. “I sent my thoughts into far places” is how he explains it 
> to Severian. Probably he used some sort of telepresence system to 
> access the databases, military systems or whatever.
We've been through this. I agree that IF the "telnet" (still working on 
what to call it) survives, then the link between thought and data is 
ready-made.
> > > He does have strong arms and hands, strong enough to dangle Severian
> > > over a cliff. But then again, he took those from Piaton.
> >
> > Which means he does not have them at all.
> Sure he has them!
No, he does not. Rather, he has Piaton.
>
> > > > All these hypotheticals are situations in which the 
> "significance" of
> > > > psionic powers TO THE STORY is quite high. Wolfe has made 
> choices---the
> > > > choices are significant.
> > > I don’t see it. When did he claim to have psychic powers?
> > I thought you said there was no difference! But again: "I sent my
> > thought to far places." Why, do you think, he said that? Why did Wolfe
> > have him say that?
> He’s talking about telepresence, virtualities? Or maybe just alluding 
> to looking at satellite images etc.
But why did he say it LIKE THAT?
>
> > So, then: how can the internet device be "significant to our
> > interpretation of the story."? It presents no challenges, is completely
> > boring, and is never mentioned.
> When did I say it was significant?
You didn't. It isn't. Is it possible to make a point to you that is not 
completely literal?
> It adds colour to our understanding of life in Typhon’s empire, just 
> as elsewhere we learn a little about life in Ascia.
I am sure that is why Wolfe wrote the series: to provide color and 
information, like a white writer in the South after the Civil War.
>
> > I propose that the food Typhon feeds Severian is a ham sandwich. Do you
> > concur?
> A kolpochoerus sandwich is another example of something that is 
> perfectly plausible,,. but for wich we have no evidence one way or the 
> other. All we know is he gave Severian food of some sort. (If I had to 
> guess, I’d say something like the ready meals eaten by Silk and 
> Mamelta on the lander.)
Are you a machine?
>
> > > I don’t think the people in Typhon’s society are tools any more than
> > > people in any tightly controlled society are tools.
> >
> > Not a part of my argument. However, that raises a point: which came
> > first? Were people forced to have implants, or did they have them
> > already and Typhon took advantage?
> Who knows? It would have been convenient for Typhon if they systems 
> were already in use, of course.
Sure. Plot convenience is an author's primary concern.
>
> > > Typhon *was* powerful and unique, but it was not any psychic 
> powers he
> > > had that made him so. Or so I think. Once he ruled Urth, he imposed
> > > his will by a variety of means, but I doubt whether innate mind
> > > control abilities were part of it.
> >
> > But you have no particular reason to say this, except that you dismiss
> > it, and therefore you doubt it, and therefore you dismiss it.
> Direct person to person mind control is a lousy way to rule an empire 
> containing billions of subjects. We hear lots about the methods 
> actually used by Typhon, and they are military, technological, and 
> personality based.
An empire must have many redundant systems. Tree, meet bark.

Are you really going to spend 5 more days trying to prove a negative you 
can't prove?



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