(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?

[Gerry Quinn]

From: "Lee Berman" <severiansola at hotmail.com>
>
>>Gerry Quinn: The story of the Boy Called Frog, which clearly originates in 
>>a synthesis of
>>Romulus and Remus combined with The Jungle Book, has also incorporated
>>snippets of other mythologies and of ways that people of one era would 
>>have
>>understood things of the past....
>
> Nice response, Gerry! I would agree with most of it. I agree that if Ymar 
> is meant to be Frog
> it was a contrivance made for UotNS only. It would involve Wolfe saying, 
> "okay, I've included
> a historical view of Typhon but who can I add to show that Frog was also a 
> real
> historical figure...hm..who founded the Commonwealth...ah! Ymar.

But UotNS didn't exist at the time, and wasn't intended.  In my view, there 
is no substantive evidence that either Typhon or Ymar play any role in the 
Tale of the Boy Called Frog.  I have said that I could imagine in principle 
that Spring Wind could contain echoes of Typhon, but I don't see any real 
indication that he does.  Mars is Spring, and Spring Wind has all the 
characteristics of Mars.  All you and James have to go on is 'Wind' (pun 
unavoidable).  My view is that "Spring" was simply too short and cryptic a 
name, too obviously fraught with symbolism.  So Wolfe added the second word, 
which can allude both to the life-giving rain-bearing wind of Spring and the 
destructive winds of war.  The first was Early Summer's intention, the 
second was the interpretation of Spring Wind's men.  And if there is any 
incorporarion of Typhon in the story, a pun on 'Typhoon' here is probably 
the extent of it., i.e. a historical general whose name sounds a bit like 
'Wind'.  In general the history and behaviour of Spring Wind are those of 
Mars, cleaving quite close to the traditions of the original story - and not 
at all those of Typhon.


>>There is of course a strong echo here of the idea of bees with swords, 
>>which was the concept of
>>bees held by the people immured for generations in the Antechamber. 
>>Perhaps Wolfe is suggesting
>>that the tales were transmitted via some antechamber folk who found their 
>>way out.
>
> It's possible. A good idea. But the story of wolves carrying knives might 
> also be akin to the
> stories we hear of lower animals developing versions of human speech and 
> writing. Or it could be a
> degenerate, wolf-like group of humans who retain manual dexterity.  Or it 
> could be that Frog was raised
> by a human group known as the Wolf Clan and the tales converted them to 
> their namesake.

Sure.  But the idea of the natural weapons of animals being mistaken for 
knives and swords is not exactly common, so the coincidence is interesting.


> But you are correct in thinking it doesn't matter too much. What matters 
> is that we get the interactive
> relationship between reality, history and mythology. I think you've denied 
> that relationship as relevant
> to Wolfe's writing in the past but perhaps there is a growing awareness of 
> how essential it is for
> understanding. Your quick switch from denial of Jungle Book influence on 
> the Frog story to assimilation
> was impressive.

As I have pointed out already, I did NOT at any point deny the influenceof 
the Jungle Book on elements of the entirety of the Tale of the Boy Named 
Frog.  What I said was that the Jungle Book influence was centred on the 
Senate of Wolves section, in which Frog doesn't really play a role, and the 
story of Frog himself derives almost in its entirety from that of Romulus. 
I have accepted that two elements of the Jungle Book did become entwined 
more with Frog than I realised, i.e. his name apparently comes from Mowgli, 
which I had not known, and the idea of the Red Flower in the Jungle Book. 
[In fact, in both cases Wolfe has mixed both tales - the Red Flower is mixed 
with the Magic Flower of the original Romulus story, and the alliteration of 
Romulus and Remus is preserved in the names Frog and Fish.]

If you want an idea I abandoned quickly, look to my idea that Spring Wind 
was Hercules and the flower was Zeus.  I dropped that quickly when Andrew 
pointed out the significance of the flower in the traditional story of Mars. 
On consideration, it became clear that Spring Wind is Mars, not Hercules.

But yes, the point of the Tale of the Boy Called Frog is largely about the 
relationship between history and mythology, and about how stories mutate 
with successive tellings and yet remain the same.  What it is not, in my 
view, is some cypher encoding a secret history of Urth, to be unlocked by 
all manner of wordplay and far-fetched analogies.


>>We cannot reject Typhon as Spring Wind arguments on account of the absence 
>>of two-headedness.
>
> Correct, but not for the reason you suggest. On the Whorl, Typhon's 
> two-headedness is common knowlege.
> Not so on Urth. It was a recent development and a deep secret. Thus Spring 
> Wind (the youthful, sober
> thoughtful Alexander) would never have two heads in legends that 
> circulated on Urth. It is the wind
> allusions and the youth/older life history of Alexander which connect 
> Spring Wind and Typhon, not heads.

Maybe so.  [Though I suspect Wolfe would have used the two-headed 
iconography widely had he thought of it; clearly, however, it only came to 
him when he started BotLS.]  As for Alexander, I don't know why you are 
dragging him into the story.  I see no relevance at all except that he as 
some random great general from history; unlike Typhon, his history does not 
even have the virtue of being relatively recent to Severian's time.  The 
Alexander idea seems particularly bizarre when you consider that Alexander 
is already dust.  Perhaps he is already embedded to some degree in the story 
of Romulus that has come to us from Roman times.  But if not, it's hard to 
see why he should be added chiliads from now.  Possible, yes.  Supported, 
doubtful.


>>Is there a 1000 year old witch in BotNS?   None that is human, I believe.
>
> I didn't say "human" witch. If Ymar and twin sister are descendents of 
> Typhon can we be sure the whole
> family is (fully) human?  I don't think so. Since I question whether 
> Severian is fully human, I don't have
> much of a problem asking the same question about Ymar.  Morover a 
> snake-essense daughter of Typhon fits
> rather nicely with his mythological namesake. Wouldn't the snaky Cumaean 
> make a nice sister or half-sister
> to snaky Scylla?

There is no evidence that any of these characters are not, at the very 
least, substantially and overtly human, apart from the Cumaean, who is 
apparently old but may or may not be very ancient but in any case is well 
known to be a cagogen like Inire.  It just amounts to another variant on 
your "everybody might be everybody else, every theory is equally valid" 
concept of literary analysis.  Anyway, this idea can easily be nipped in the 
bud by remembering that if Ymar had a twin sister, she would have been 
serving with him in the Matachin Tower.  Women were not barred from the 
Torturers' Guild until an edict of Ymar's, after he became Autarch.  Take 
note of the sadistic Madame Prefect in UotNS - she may be a nod to the 
reasons why.


>>As for Inire, if I recall correctly he is said in BotNS to date from the 
>>time of Ymar
>
> In my view that is when he started using the name "Inire". But in UotNS, 
> Severian rather inexplicably
> encounters a real wizard/necromancer named Ceryx. Immediately after their 
> encounter, Severian is captured
> and brought in front of the highly sequestered Typhon. Rather than dismiss 
> Ceryx as a one-off, I think he
> is the vizier (and magic investigator) for Typhon. In other words, he is 
> Inire, serving in the same
> capacity that he will serve the Autarchs.
>
> In my view, most of Severian's adventures (Dorcas, Sanguinary Fields, 
> Vodalus/Thecla, Old Leech etc.) are
> pieces set up by this necromancer to try to winnow from him the secret of 
> true resurrection.

I prefer the book Wolfe wrote.

- Gerry Quinn