(urth) do the Hierogrammates *care* about the megatherians?

[James Wynn]

>> J Wynn:
>> Why call Juno, Rhea Silvia, and Mars by direct cognates and call 
>> Romulus and Remus by Frog and Fish? There's no "Fish" in the "Jungle 
>> Book".
>
> Gerry:
> I'm not familiar with details of the Jungle Book - are their parts of 
> it in the story?.  In any case, we don't need it to identify Frog and 
> Fish, because the story of Romulus and Remus is so very clearly 
> identifiable that there seems no reasonable alternative source (other 
> than a different retelling of the same story).
>
> Look at the clear points of identity:
> * twins
> [points of connection between Romulus and Frog]
> * Frog builds a trench and tells Fish it is to be the wall; Fish mocks 
> him by jumping over it; Frog slays him (*exactly* the same as with 
> Romulus and Remus).
>
> Note 1: Mars or Hercules was supposedly their father - some people 
> have found Mars somewhere I think, but I prefer the idea of Hercules 
> as Spring Wind, because of his parentage, Zeus appearing as a flower 
> which is the sort of thing he did. 

Spring Wind is Hercules? You justify this with supposed comparisons to 
*Zeus* rather than Hercules? And you have a problem with flimsy evidence?

My evidence is based on the clear patterns of the way Wolfe starts 
telling this story. Juno being called "Early Summer" is straight 
forward--it is just that the translator mixes up what comes from where. 
He assumes Juno's name comes from June rather than the other way around. 
Rhea Silvia is again a straightforward attempt attempt at translation. 
The "spring" in Spring Wind works for "Mars" but does not fit the 
pattern already laid down because there's no place for the "Wind" 
translation. The telling of this story has just taken a very strange 
turn, and it is about to get worse.

Of course, there is nothing in Romulus' or Remus' name or story to 
suggest calling them "Frog" and "Fish". You are arbitrarily stating that 
it's random noise because it doesn't fit your preconceived model. That 
must be very comforting. You don't even need to feel like you know "The 
Jungle Book" all that well to defend your analysis. My interpretations 
don't leave me that convenient escape hatch whenever I'm cornered. I 
started with the assumption that Frog was a real person. Unlike you, I 
don't just settle on the first hill that catches my eye and build 
fortifications there.  I first profiled the name of the person who could 
be Frog and then found Ymar sitting in plain sight. Based on same 
pattern, I believe that there is a good chance Severian will have met 
Fish on Tzadkiel (the shepherds) and his name will have a synonym or 
etymology that _could_ be translated fish or a type of fish. Possibly 
his name will mean "sword" or a type of sword. Naturally, if I find 
someone that matches what I was looking for, I will be doubly-convinced, 
because he fits a profile I created beforehand.

Of course the Story of Frog has a lot of similarities to the Life of 
Romulus. "East of Eden" has a lot of similarities to Genesis. So what? 
This is the sort of conversation I have with people who say Jesus of 
Nazareth is _actually_ Dionysus or Mithras. And I think that  sort of 
exegesis was on Wolfe's mind while writing this story.

> Frog later claimed his heritage in the name of the Red Flower.)

Red Flower is a reference from "The Jungle Books". In the Kipling's 
stories it means "fire". In the Book of the New Sun, an easy 
interpretation would be the sun itself. However, I'd be open to other 
reasonable explanations.

> Note 2: Instead of having both twins raised first by wolves and later 
> by shepherds, Wolfe splits them so one is raised by each.
> I honestly don't understand how anyone can seriously assert that this 
> story is anything other than a version of Romulus and Remus!  And on 
> such flimsy evidence...

That's because you don't really know that much about the references. If 
you were better able to recognize them, they would be quite jarring. The 
fact that it has so many similarities to the story of Romulus and Remus 
only makes the parts that don't map so troubling.

>> I think it is an easy call that Ymar is Frog (ymir=king=rana=frog). I 
>> suspect that Fish will be found on Tzadkiel (the shepherds). Possibly 
>> he will have a name that means "sword".
>
> That's just a chain of puns in a bunch of different languages.  I 
> think it's random noise that means nothing.  How come Frog isn't 
> Martin Luther King - the chain is one step shorter! 

You're doing it again, Gerry.  I was inclined to ignore this response as 
unserious even at face-value. However (speaking as to a child), because 
MLK is not a character in the books. Ymar is. He is a child in the time 
of Typhon's reign.

> We don't know a lot about the life of Ymar the Autarch - are there any 
> obvious correspondences between his story and that of Frog? 

Raised by wolves (Torturers).

> I can't think of any, unless Ymar founded Nessus, which seems it would 
> be hard to justify.

Why? Because you think this is _merely_ Wolfe ham-fisting the story of 
Romulus for no narrative value, you think Ymar must be precisely like 
Romulus in every way? I'm getting dizzy.

J.