(urth) Atonement Theology and the Conciliator

[David Stockhoff]

On 1/13/2011 6:11 PM, Matthew Weber wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 2:59 PM, David Stockhoff 
> <dstockhoff at verizon.net <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>> wrote:
>
>     On 1/13/2011 5:45 PM, Matthew Weber wrote:
>
>         On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 2:33 PM, David Stockhoff
>         <dstockhoff at verizon.net <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>
>         <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net
>         <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>>> wrote:
>
>         Anselm and Urban reputely pulled out their lawn chairs to
>         watch the Cathars---fellow Christians who followed more
>         conservative teachings---get massacred.
>
>         *********************
>
>         Anselm?  No mean feat for a man who'd been dead 100 years
>         before the Albigensian Crusade began.
>
>     Must have been a different Anselm. I'll check that.
>
>
> I'm sure there were plenty of Anselms around--but not St Anselm.
Sorry, it was the siege of Capua the pair of friends  entertained 
themselves by watching.
>
>
>
>         If your reference point is Gnosticism, then the teachings of
>         the Cathars were indeed more conservative.  And the
>         Carolingian emperors did not create a new rite, much less a
>         new theology--they suppressed local rites in favor of the
>         Roman Rite, and their theology is consistent with the
>         development of Western Catholicism to that point.
>
>     Well, it's your source against mine. ;) However, since my source
>     is recent, its relative correctness is irrelevant. Wolfe would
>     know your source, not mine.
>
>     OTOH, what you are saying is exactly what I said: the Carols
>     suppressed local (Saxon) rites and their Christianity WAS Western
>     Catholicism.
>
>
> I don't think there were any Saxon rites to speak of.  It wasn't long 
> before Charlemagne that the Franks were converted; hence, the rites in 
> use were those of whichever missionaries brought the faith to the 
> area.  My impression is that the Gallican rite was most prominent there.
Sorry, not the Saxon rite, but the Saxons' rite. I don't know what it 
was called.
>
>
>         Unquestionably churchmen of the time countenanced things that
>         repulse us.  But I'm very wary of truth-testing religious
>         propositions by measuring them against the political positions
>         currently in fashion; if anything, it seems to me that it
>         ought to go the other way around.  If there are timeless
>         religious truths, then they should inform our political decisions.
>
>     As I stated, and as you know more than I do, Anselm's theology
>     didn't last, at least officially. So it was truth-tested pretty
>     quickly and found wanting. Our current "fashionable" positions
>     don't really enter into it except as Wolfe might agree with them.
>
> On the contrary--Anselm's /Cur Deus Homo /is still a key work in the 
> development of Western soteriology, and it has never fallen out of 
> favor.  The Christus Victor theory has come back into style recently, 
> but I wonder how much of that is due to modern squeamishness about 
> sacrifice.
It most certainly has not fallen out of favor, but some of his more 
extreme ideas have, as noted. I'm getting it straight from the Catholic 
Encyclopedia, which your people wrote, not mine! ;)

What's the Victor theory?
>
>     And I am sure he would not approve of slaughtering Muslims for
>     salvation, so....
>
>
> No, most likely not, and neither do I.  On the other hand, remind me 
> how the Seljuk Turks came by their possession of the Holy Land...?
Was Wolfe also considering converting to Islam?


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