(urth) S&S vs. SF in BotNS

[António Pedro Marques]

Daniel Petersen wrote (21-12-2011 23:16):
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 9:25 PM, Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com
>  <mailto:jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Daniel Petersen wrote:
>> Ok, Jerry, so I think you, like me, have 'magical' as a subset of
> 'supernatural' or 'paranormal'. But, if not in terms of spells, etc.,
> then in what sense are these phenomena 'magical'? (I think I normally
> think there has to be some human agency in terms of cooperation with
> greater powers through arcane [and usually uncertain] rules or rituals.
> That's the kind of stuff I feel I don't see in BotNS. If the Thecla
> ritual eating is to be thought of this way, then, for once, I'd probably
> tend toward a more 'scientific' explanation as has been discussed.)
>
> To me, goety and theurgy are only one branch of magic.  Another is the
> kind that works by sympathy and contagion, such as sticking pins in dolls
> or keeping one's accidental cut from being infected by cleaning the knife
> that caused it.  Maybe in the same category is the kind that works by
> less obvious correspondences, such as Renaissance alchemy and astrology,
> or indigenous medicine that works by kinships among species that are
> based on stories.  Then there's knowing true names, as on Earthsea.
> Another kind is magical devices, such as the One Ring.  And the kind
> that's just an inherent power, and is or isn't the same as psi.  I don't
> think I can classify all the kinds of magic, but "I know it when I see
> it" (and don't expect everyone to agree).
>
>
> Ah, that's very helpful.  I really need to study what 'magic' might
> encompass.  All these are plausible, but I would not normally have called
>  'inherent power' a magical quality.  That's why I don't think Gandalf is
>  magical in LotR - because he's a 'being with powers', not a 'worker' of
>  magic, someone who goes through certain motions (he may do that as well,
> but it seems to me his 'race' have these sort of inherent powers you
> speak of). Gandalf is more like one of the X-Men to me (or even a 'god'
> or 'titan') than like a traditional warlock or something.  I would put
> both the Neighbours and Inhumi in this category (perhaps *even if* they
> can also be explained more 'scientifically').  All that is connected to
> the Claw in BotNS is NOT magical to me:  rather, it is supernatural and
> miraculous (perhaps prophetic, apocalyptic, and eschatological as well) -
> all rooted in the person, mission, and character of the Conciliator.
> Kind of the opposite of most kinds of magic to me:  more missional than
> manipulative we might say.

In my opinion there's no magic in the 'LotR universe', but I won't enter an
argument over that.

I'll just say that all 'powers' present in it, even those transferred to 
objects, seem to come from Eru and exist by Eru - even if some of their 
wielders are evil, their powers are the same Eru gave them, just misused and 
consequently diminished - cf. Sauron's increasing inability to take an 
appealing shape.

For me, magic is something that breaks the physical laws of the universe it 
exists in. Otherwise, it's just a universe with different laws.