(urth) Is Agia a Robot?

Sat Jun 19 08:30:01 PDT 2010

He's got these ribbons or something.

And wierdness with masks like the hierodules.

.

> Well, except then you have the fact that Agilus doesn't have a metal head.
>
> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>> They are the same model, one M, one F.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>> That makes some sense. It jives with the Kim Lee Soong group in the
>>> Antechamber. It explains the ninja weapons. It's simple.
>>>
>>> It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a
>>> minor alteration as to allow us to jettison the "facedancer" technology
>>> (she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she
>>> resemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to
>>> distinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has
>>> not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?
>>>
>>> Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common
>>> sex-doll specs?
>>>
>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>
>>>> When has an assassin robot been mentioned?
>>>>
>>>> According to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name.
>>>>
>>>> Agia is an oriental robot.
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it
>>>>> than
>>>>> to propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not.
>>>>>
>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over
>>>>>> again,
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> am on the same page as you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly
>>>>>>> created
>>>>>>> by the gods.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>> reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known
>>>>>>> principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from
>>>>>>> plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and
>>>>>>> directly
>>>>>>> relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest
>>>>>>> central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are
>>>>>>> twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous
>>>>>>> tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important
>>>>>>> character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian
>>>>>>> hottie
>>>>>>> ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies
>>>>>>> heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and
>>>>>>> ties
>>>>>>> in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards
>>>>>>> established differences between robots and humans, because what
>>>>>>> matters
>>>>>>> in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is
>>>>>>> capable
>>>>>>> of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the
>>>>>>> above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being
>>>>>>> Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the
>>>>>>> gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the
>>>>>>> aureole around A&A.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to
>>>>>>>> himself,
>>>>>>>> but it makes some sense.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin
>>>>>>>> sister in Love.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy
>>>>>>>> (her
>>>>>>>> name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than
>>>>>>>> Severian
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> many ways. Together they represent a different path for the
>>>>>>>> universe,
>>>>>>>> one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new
>>>>>>>> hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in
>>>>>>>> Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and
>>>>>>>> pseudoincestuous
>>>>>>>> love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll
>>>>>>>> ninja
>>>>>>>> on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which
>>>>>>>> makes
>>>>>>>> it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the
>>>>>>>> facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is
>>>>>>>> specialized
>>>>>>>> for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his
>>>>>>>> powers; he probably acquired her through his powers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her.
>>>>>>>> She
>>>>>>>> met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She
>>>>>>>> awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but
>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>> she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what
>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>> can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of
>>>>>>>> this.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an
>>>>>>>> assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the
>>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>>> to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus.
>>>>>>>> (Call
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of
>>>>>>>> Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that
>>>>>>>> robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil
>>>>>>>> regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic
>>>>>>>> Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe
>>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>>> had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules
>>>>>>>> created?
>>>>>>>> Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were
>>>>>>>> truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or
>>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>>> happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the
>>>>>>>> excellent
>>>>>>>> question, "So what if Agia is a robot?"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns
>>>>>>>> spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all,
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is
>>>>>>>> beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to
>>>>>>>> kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the
>>>>>>>> Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the
>>>>>>>> Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant
>>>>>>>> time-traveler
>>>>>>>> or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> human.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over
>>>>>>>>> Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...ryan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it
>>>>>>>>>> becomes
>>>>>>>>>> even more important to explain what changed her.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no
>>>>>>>>>> Pinocchio.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings
>>>>>>>>>>> *now*.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to
>>>>>>>>>>>> Severian.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Adam Thornton wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> characters
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> show
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The same one from the Toy Theater?  Perhaps Hethor is pulling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agia's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> strings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Adam
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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