(urth) Is Agia a Robot?
David Stockhoff
dstockhoff at verizon.net
Sat Jun 19 08:15:06 PDT 2010
Well, except then you have the fact that Agilus doesn't have a metal head.
brunians at brunians.org wrote:
> They are the same model, one M, one F.
>
> .
>
>
>
>> That makes some sense. It jives with the Kim Lee Soong group in the
>> Antechamber. It explains the ninja weapons. It's simple.
>>
>> It doesn't explain the eye color change, though perhaps that is such a
>> minor alteration as to allow us to jettison the "facedancer" technology
>> (she never changes gender either), except for one point. How does she
>> resemble Agilus so closely? Is that just Severian's inability to
>> distinguish Asians? Or is Agilus fresh off the ship too, and Nessus has
>> not seen his kind for millennia? Why do they not have Asian names?
>>
>> Who made her? How is she so light and yet so strong? Are those common
>> sex-doll specs?
>>
>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>
>>> When has an assassin robot been mentioned?
>>>
>>> According to Jonas, his ship had a Korean (or Chinese?) name.
>>>
>>> Agia is an oriental robot.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Doll vs assassin? It's a minor point.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose it's easier to propose a sex doll without a motive for it
>>>> than
>>>> to propose an assassin doll without a motive for it. Or maybe not.
>>>>
>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Except for your second to last paragraph, which I need to go over
>>>>> again,
>>>>> I
>>>>> am on the same page as you.
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Let me add a point or two to address Roy's observations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (9) Agia is literally holy, in that she is a Heirodule, directly
>>>>>> created
>>>>>> by the gods.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (10) As an assassin, she is the anti-Ossipago. If you gave Ossipago a
>>>>>> shove, I bet you'd hear the mason's hammer striking stone. There's no
>>>>>> reason to compare her to chems, creations of Typhon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There bound to be some misses here, but this theory uses known
>>>>>> principles to predict what we know we don't know. It draws from
>>>>>> plentiful pulp and SF cliches, including some playful ones, and
>>>>>> directly
>>>>>> relates to the gnostic themes of TBotNS. It uses the sacred incest
>>>>>> central to gnosticism/alchemy and explains why Agia and Agilus are
>>>>>> twins, and confirms the significance of Severian's incestuous
>>>>>> tendencies. It explains why Agia, obviously an extremely important
>>>>>> character, is so important. It even explains why she is an Asian
>>>>>> hottie
>>>>>> ninja, a fact Lexicon Urthis overlooks. It identifies the doll in the
>>>>>> box and explains her purple eyes and Agia's brown ones. It relies
>>>>>> heavily on Wolfe's near-obsession with robots and half-humans, and
>>>>>> ties
>>>>>> in with the theme of base matter trapped in a subcreation searching
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> godhead and the next universe. It almost completely disregards
>>>>>> established differences between robots and humans, because what
>>>>>> matters
>>>>>> in religion is the soul. It's a thoroughly Wolfean scheme.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let me know if there's anything it doesn't explain.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, after looking back a bit, I think Agia was made primarily as an
>>>>>> assassin, not as a sex toy. Hethor made a toy of her, and she is
>>>>>> capable
>>>>>> of sex because she is an assassin, not the reverse. If this and the
>>>>>> above are true, then there was probably never a chance of A&A being
>>>>>> Tested; that was just speculation anyway. It's difficult to see the
>>>>>> gods' motives in creating her and too easy to make wild guesses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if it was Severian's own light that was the source of the
>>>>>> aureole around A&A.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Try this on. It's quite a bit of backstory for Wolfe keep to
>>>>>>> himself,
>>>>>>> but it makes some sense.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (1) Agia and Agilus represent the alchemical union of Man and twin
>>>>>>> sister in Love.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (2) Because They are in love, this alchemical union is also holy
>>>>>>> (her
>>>>>>> name; the aureole), thus not just alchemical but gnostic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (3) Agilus is a rival True Man, probably a lot better than Severian
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> many ways. Together they represent a different path for the
>>>>>>> universe,
>>>>>>> one that leads to a new universe, but not to a new universe of new
>>>>>>> hope for Man. I don't think the reason for this can lie just in
>>>>>>> Agilus, but rather---necessarily---in Their union and
>>>>>>> pseudoincestuous
>>>>>>> love. Agia is just as good an example of Robot, and They click.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (4) Thus they oppose Severian, who is the true Man who will unite
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> his sister and create a new universe of new hope for Man.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (5) Agia was some kind of intelligent Asian facedancer/sex-doll
>>>>>>> ninja
>>>>>>> on the ship. (A weird skill set, but also a cliched one, which makes
>>>>>>> it fair fodder for Wolfean mythical analysis. I suspect the
>>>>>>> facedancing is more for sex than for killing---that she is
>>>>>>> specialized
>>>>>>> for sex, not killing.) Hethor only controlled her because of his
>>>>>>> powers; he probably acquired her through his powers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (6) She escaped the lemon-wood box, or else someone released her.
>>>>>>> She
>>>>>>> met Agilus and fell in Love. She made herself in His image. She
>>>>>>> awakened, or rather Awakened, since she was sentient already, but
>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>> she is more than that. Now she knows who and what she is and what
>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>> can become: she is holy in her Love. (Severian catches glimpses of
>>>>>>> this.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (7) Too bad she has no scruples whatsoever, but then she's an
>>>>>>> assassin. Remind you of anyone? Yep, Agia would happily kill the
>>>>>>> world
>>>>>>> to spawn a new one under her holy rule; so would have Agilus. (Call
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> AEgypt.) Possibly the Heirodules even considered them rivals of
>>>>>>> Severian. perhaps planning to Test them if he did not kill Agilus.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It may seem odd for this transformation to happen to a robot, but it
>>>>>>> doesn't matter what she was, only what she becomes. Remember that
>>>>>>> robots are people in Wolfe's thinking, capable of good and evil
>>>>>>> regardless of their base, Man-made, subcreated origin. If Man can be
>>>>>>> god, why not robot too? What more proof of God's reality---what more
>>>>>>> of a miracle---than for a robot to be another rival false gnostic
>>>>>>> Christ figure? And she does suffer, justly, when Agilus dies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How cool is it that robots (rather a robot-human couple) maybe even
>>>>>>> had a shot at becoming Conciliator? And aren't the Heirodules
>>>>>>> created?
>>>>>>> Obviously robots could indeed have supplanted humans if they were
>>>>>>> truly better and passed the Test---didn't that already more or less
>>>>>>> happen in a previous universe? So there is the answer to the
>>>>>>> excellent
>>>>>>> question, "So what if Agia is a robot?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (8) She resists Hethor, who pursues her. Enter Severian, who burns
>>>>>>> spiritually for her. She probably doesn't see who he is at all, just
>>>>>>> that he is a good target, but maybe she does. After Agilus is
>>>>>>> beheaded, she masters Hethor and goes after Severian. She fails to
>>>>>>> kill Severian, but becomes Vodalus, rebellious subruler of the
>>>>>>> Commonwealth in her own right. Note that she doesn't ally with the
>>>>>>> Ascians, "once she sees them." She's not one of them at all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I retract any speculations that Agia was a significant time-traveler
>>>>>>> or that she was allied with Gunnie or Ida. Also, that Agilus was not
>>>>>>> human.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Agilus is the obvious suspect here. The one who obsesses over
>>>>>>>> Jovinian steel. The one whose image she has assumed. The problem is
>>>>>>>> just the misdirect with Hethor coming to their rag shop, which we
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> to assume Agia and Agilus inherited from their mother. Either that
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> simply take that story as a lie, and Hethor's as a truth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't hate the idea, it just bugs me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ...ryan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2010, at 7:45 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is possible as well, and it's very Wolfean. But then it
>>>>>>>>> becomes
>>>>>>>>> even more important to explain what changed her.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And whence her strength and familiarity with weapons? She's no
>>>>>>>>> Pinocchio.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the paracoita theory is correct, she pulls the strings *now*.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> She is an object that has developed a soul, become a person.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, Agia pulls Hethor's strings. See Father Inire's letter to
>>>>>>>>>>> Severian.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Adam Thornton wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 06/18/2010 05:32 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We DO agree that Agia is one of the more important characters
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> book, no doubt. But try as I may, I can't shake the notion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hethor's monologue was not just a demonstration by Wolfe to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> show
>>>>>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>>>>>> his writing chops. Who is the girl in the box?????????
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The same one from the Toy Theater? Perhaps Hethor is pulling
>>>>>>>>>>>> Agia's
>>>>>>>>>>>> strings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Adam
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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