(urth) Allegory

Sun Jun 6 07:52:20 PDT 2010

Well, sure. But they're also serving very similar purposes as far as this discussion goes. (There's context as well as definition.) Both are didactic types of writing. And the discussion so far about allegory has focused on an author's didactic purposes rather than the difference, say, between personification-allegory and beast fables.

If we go with Tolkien's distinction between "applicability" and "allegory," I would think that insofar as a fable has a "lesson" to be learned, it's still didactic and, to use Tolkien's phrase about allegory, something that "resides...in the purposed domination of the author."

----- Original Message ----
From: "brunians at brunians.org" <brunians at brunians.org>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Sun, June 6, 2010 1:31:05 AM
Subject: Re: (urth) Allegory

They are terms.

They have specific meanings.

Allegories and fables are different.

The differences can be described.

.

> Well, maybe. But now we're quibbling. You're a fan of "fable." I'm a fan
> of "allegory." But we likely think the words mean similar things.
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Sent: Sun, June 6, 2010 12:19:05 AM
> Subject: Re: (urth) Allegory
>
> It's a fable.  If every work that used a journey as a metaphor for death
> was deemed an allegory, the word would be stretched out of meaning.
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:15 AM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Of course it's an allegory...just a "good" one. Even Tolkien broke his own
> rules: what is "Leaf by Niggle" if not an allegory?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ________________________________
>  From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 11:53:32 PM
>>Subject: Re: (urth) Allegory
>>
>>
>>I rather doubt that Tolkien considered The Pearl to be an allegory.  He
>> took the time to translate it, after all.
>>
>>
>>On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>"But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always
>> have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.  I
>> much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to
>> the thought and experience of readers.  I think that  many confuse
>> 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of
>> the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author."
>> --Tolkien, Foreword to  The Lord of the Rings
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Best wishes,
>>>Jack
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>I think it's important to remember that Tolkien was a scholar of ancient
>>> languages who also had to spend plenty of time teaching medieval
>>> literature. Apparently, his colleagues say that his reaction to
>>> "allegory" was specifically targeted against the strain of _Piers
>>> Plowman_/_Confessio Amantis_ brand that was part of his teaching duties
>>> and which he was of course familiar with. (I'm getting this from my
>>> memory of _The Inklings_ and other stuff from his letters.)
>>>>
>>>>To the point: what bothered him about allegory was what it did to
>>>> mythology and romance in the middle ages, such as removing it from its
>>>> original context and placing a veneer of teaching or instruction over
>>>> it. But Tolkien himself was not averse to literature-with-an-overt
>>>> "message," if that's what we mean by allegory. The Eddas, Beowulf, even
>>>> the Bible, all of which he loved for their mythic status, are generally
>>>> "allegorical" but not allegorical in the same way that _The Romance of
>>>> the Rose_ or _The Pearl_ is allegorical. They model a way of living, a
>>>> mindset, an idealized culture, etc., but they aren't allegorical in the
>>>> reductive way that _Pilgrim's Progress_ has walking personifications
>>>> and where meanings can be decoded in a this-means-that relationship.
>>>>
>>>>They also aren't topically allegorical, and of course Tolkien hated the
>>>> idea that LotR was sometimes received as a big anti-Germany "allegory."
>>>> I think Tolkien was fine with the general idea that his books could be
>>>> thought of as contributing to thinking about certain situations like
>>>> that -- after all, what use is myth if it doesn't try to define our
>>>> outlook? But he resisted the idea that his books were allegory if that
>>>> meant that you say "Sauron is Hitler" and walk away thinking you solved
>>>> the puzzle.
>>>>
>>>>Relation to Wolfe? I've always put New Sun in the same category as
>>>> Spenser's _Faerie Queene_, which is a very non-reductive allegory that
>>>> uses its symbols to create interesting ambiguities rather than just
>>>> reduce an icon to a static meaning. New Sun's imagery often works the
>>>> same way for me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----
>>>>From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
>>>>To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>>>>>Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:14:12 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>>
>>>>On 6/5/2010 7:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>> He'd whine loudly.
>>>>
>>>>In the interview he said he disliked allegory wherever he smelled it.
>>>> But that didn't stop him from producing some, however unintentionally.
>>>>
>>>>-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
>>>>>>>IEEE Student Chapter Blog at
>>>>< http://ieeetamut.org/ >
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Best wishes,
>>>Jack
>>>
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