(urth) Allegory

Sat Jun 5 23:31:05 PDT 2010

They are terms.

They have specific meanings.

Allegories and fables are different.

The differences can be described.

.

> Well, maybe. But now we're quibbling. You're a fan of "fable." I'm a fan
> of "allegory." But we likely think the words mean similar things.
>
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> ________________________________
> From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Sent: Sun, June 6, 2010 12:19:05 AM
> Subject: Re: (urth) Allegory
>
> It's a fable.  If every work that used a journey as a metaphor for death
> was deemed an allegory, the word would be stretched out of meaning.
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 1:15 AM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Of course it's an allegory...just a "good" one. Even Tolkien broke his own
> rules: what is "Leaf by Niggle" if not an allegory?
>>
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> ________________________________
>  From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>>To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 11:53:32 PM
>>Subject: Re: (urth) Allegory
>>
>>
>>I rather doubt that Tolkien considered The Pearl to be an allegory.  He
>> took the time to translate it, after all.
>>
>>
>>On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 11:03 PM, Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>"But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always
>> have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.  I
>> much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability to
>> the thought and experience of readers.  I think that  many confuse
>> 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of
>> the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author."
>> --Tolkien, Foreword to  The Lord of the Rings
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Best wishes,
>>>Jack
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 10:39 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>I think it's important to remember that Tolkien was a scholar of ancient
>>> languages who also had to spend plenty of time teaching medieval
>>> literature. Apparently, his colleagues say that his reaction to
>>> "allegory" was specifically targeted against the strain of _Piers
>>> Plowman_/_Confessio Amantis_ brand that was part of his teaching duties
>>> and which he was of course familiar with. (I'm getting this from my
>>> memory of _The Inklings_ and other stuff from his letters.)
>>>>
>>>>To the point: what bothered him about allegory was what it did to
>>>> mythology and romance in the middle ages, such as removing it from its
>>>> original context and placing a veneer of teaching or instruction over
>>>> it. But Tolkien himself was not averse to literature-with-an-overt
>>>> "message," if that's what we mean by allegory. The Eddas, Beowulf, even
>>>> the Bible, all of which he loved for their mythic status, are generally
>>>> "allegorical" but not allegorical in the same way that _The Romance of
>>>> the Rose_ or _The Pearl_ is allegorical. They model a way of living, a
>>>> mindset, an idealized culture, etc., but they aren't allegorical in the
>>>> reductive way that _Pilgrim's Progress_ has walking personifications
>>>> and where meanings can be decoded in a this-means-that relationship.
>>>>
>>>>They also aren't topically allegorical, and of course Tolkien hated the
>>>> idea that LotR was sometimes received as a big anti-Germany "allegory."
>>>> I think Tolkien was fine with the general idea that his books could be
>>>> thought of as contributing to thinking about certain situations like
>>>> that -- after all, what use is myth if it doesn't try to define our
>>>> outlook? But he resisted the idea that his books were allegory if that
>>>> meant that you say "Sauron is Hitler" and walk away thinking you solved
>>>> the puzzle.
>>>>
>>>>Relation to Wolfe? I've always put New Sun in the same category as
>>>> Spenser's _Faerie Queene_, which is a very non-reductive allegory that
>>>> uses its symbols to create interesting ambiguities rather than just
>>>> reduce an icon to a static meaning. New Sun's imagery often works the
>>>> same way for me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----
>>>>From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
>>>>To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>>>>>>>Sent: Sat, June 5, 2010 9:14:12 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>>
>>>>On 6/5/2010 7:34 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>> He'd whine loudly.
>>>>
>>>>In the interview he said he disliked allegory wherever he smelled it.
>>>> But that didn't stop him from producing some, however unintentionally.
>>>>
>>>>-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
>>>>>>>IEEE Student Chapter Blog at
>>>>< http://ieeetamut.org/ >
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Best wishes,
>>>Jack
>>>
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>>
>>
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