(urth) traveling north

Thu Jun 3 10:22:01 PDT 2010

I don't think so.

I think that many of the same patters would exist, and that we, or people
enough like us as no matter (cf Borges) would be doing about the same
stuff we are doing, more or less.

And in fact, I think that we *are* doing any and all such things in
neighboring Worlds. I know I am.

.

> I think _we_ wouldn't be doing any such thing because we wouldn't have
> been born. A world without the Mosaic religions would be so different
> that the human landscape would be utterly different, if it still
> existed at all.
>
> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 9:50 AM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I don't think there'd be nothing.  Just that 3.5 billion people in
>> different faiths would make the world look really different.
>>
>> I for one think we'd be burying people in the air and praying before
>> sacred fires.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:45 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>> And there would be no Christians if Moses hadn't been born.
>>>
>>> There would be something.
>>>
>>> Why do you think there would be nothing?
>>>
>>> There wasn't nothing before.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero
>>>> Muslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born.  It'd
>>>> be an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free
>>>> agents.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:35 PM, John Watkins
>>>> <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I'm fairly sure that your last sentence is not correct.  There are
>>>>> approximately 1.5 billion Muslims, but there are also approximately 2
>>>>> billion Christians (estimates range from 1.9 to 2.2 per a quick scan
>>>>> of the wiki).  There are only about 14 million Mormons.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>>>> I think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> Europe were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.
>>>>>> Christianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily
>>>>>> adaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of
>>>>>> southern
>>>>>> Arizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly
>>>>>> henolatric (eg
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Christianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is
>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>> the World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> as a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of
>>>>>> course)
>>>>>> as the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> Mormons as something other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in
>>>>>> its
>>>>>> several branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira
>>>>>>> <domus_artemis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the
>>>>>>>> Jesus
>>>>>>>> "equivalent" already happened in Urth's past. And maybe Jesus too
>>>>>>>> further in
>>>>>>>> the past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the
>>>>>>>> Second
>>>>>>>> Coming or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> kind
>>>>>>>> of stuff, I'm not even religious.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "The Urth we are reading about
>>>>>>>> is much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its
>>>>>>>> spiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which
>>>>>>>> plagued our pagan ancestors."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much
>>>>>>>> "enlightened" now than it was at the time of our "pagan ancestors"
>>>>>>>> (not
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> mention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion
>>>>>>>> around)? Is
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> what Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,
>>>>>>>> but Severian/Conciliator rings like "Jesus" (probably second
>>>>>>>> comming)
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400
>>>>>>>>> From: brunians at brunians.org
>>>>>>>>> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Severian is the Conciliator.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Or am I missing something?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > I agree. The Conciliator was the "jesus" of Urth. And that
>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>> > happened in the past of Urth.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400
>>>>>>>>> >> From: eugene.zar at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> >> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>>>>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman
>>>>>>>>> <severiansola at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>> >> > FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less
>>>>>>>>> spiritually
>>>>>>>>> >> > advanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly
>>>>>>>>> >> > spiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,
>>>>>>>>> >> > Severian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> >> > is much older than our current Earth but being stunted in
>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>> >> > spiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which
>>>>>>>>> >> > plagued our pagan ancestors.
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> >> be very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very
>>>>>>>>> specifically
>>>>>>>>> >> comes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as
>>>>>>>>> savior.
>>>>>>>>> >> Severian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is
>>>>>>>>> apparent
>>>>>>>>> >> early in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to,
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> >> part, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking
>>>>>>>>> leads:
>>>>>>>>> >> salvation.
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> > _________________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>>>>> >> Eugene Z
>>>>>>>>> >> http://blog.eugenez.net
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>
>
> --
> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
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