(urth) traveling north

Thu Jun 3 10:20:28 PDT 2010

So for me things would be the same, is what you are saying.

.

> I don't think there'd be nothing.  Just that 3.5 billion people in
> different faiths would make the world look really different.
>
> I for one think we'd be burying people in the air and praying before
> sacred fires.
>
> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:45 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>> And there would be no Christians if Moses hadn't been born.
>>
>> There would be something.
>>
>> Why do you think there would be nothing?
>>
>> There wasn't nothing before.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>> I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero
>>> Muslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born.  It'd
>>> be an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free
>>> agents.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:35 PM, John Watkins
>>> <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I'm fairly sure that your last sentence is not correct.  There are
>>>> approximately 1.5 billion Muslims, but there are also approximately 2
>>>> billion Christians (estimates range from 1.9 to 2.2 per a quick scan
>>>> of the wiki).  There are only about 14 million Mormons.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>>> I think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations of
>>>>> Europe were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.
>>>>> Christianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily
>>>>> adaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of
>>>>> southern
>>>>> Arizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly
>>>>> henolatric (eg
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).
>>>>>
>>>>> Christianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is
>>>>> indeed
>>>>> the World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I
>>>>> think
>>>>> of
>>>>> as a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of
>>>>> course)
>>>>> as the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including
>>>>> some
>>>>> Mormons as something other.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in
>>>>> its
>>>>> several branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>> I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira
>>>>>> <domus_artemis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the
>>>>>>> Jesus
>>>>>>> "equivalent" already happened in Urth's past. And maybe Jesus too
>>>>>>> further in
>>>>>>> the past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the
>>>>>>> Second
>>>>>>> Coming or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> kind
>>>>>>> of stuff, I'm not even religious.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The Urth we are reading about
>>>>>>> is much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its
>>>>>>> spiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which
>>>>>>> plagued our pagan ancestors."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much
>>>>>>> "enlightened" now than it was at the time of our "pagan ancestors"
>>>>>>> (not
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> mention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion
>>>>>>> around)? Is
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> what Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,
>>>>>>> but Severian/Conciliator rings like "Jesus" (probably second
>>>>>>> comming)
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400
>>>>>>>> From: brunians at brunians.org
>>>>>>>> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Severian is the Conciliator.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or am I missing something?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > I agree. The Conciliator was the "jesus" of Urth. And that
>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>> > happened in the past of Urth.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400
>>>>>>>> >> From: eugene.zar at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> >> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>>>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman
>>>>>>>> <severiansola at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>> >> > FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less
>>>>>>>> spiritually
>>>>>>>> >> > advanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly
>>>>>>>> >> > spiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,
>>>>>>>> >> > Severian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about
>>>>>>>> >> > is much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its
>>>>>>>> >> > spiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which
>>>>>>>> >> > plagued our pagan ancestors.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> >> be very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very
>>>>>>>> specifically
>>>>>>>> >> comes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as
>>>>>>>> savior.
>>>>>>>> >> Severian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is
>>>>>>>> apparent
>>>>>>>> >> early in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to,
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> >> part, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:
>>>>>>>> >> salvation.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> > _________________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>>>> >> Eugene Z
>>>>>>>> >> http://blog.eugenez.net
>>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
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