(urth) traveling north

Thu Jun 3 09:50:35 PDT 2010

I don't think there'd be nothing.  Just that 3.5 billion people in
different faiths would make the world look really different.

I for one think we'd be burying people in the air and praying before
sacred fires.

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:45 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
> And there would be no Christians if Moses hadn't been born.
>
> There would be something.
>
> Why do you think there would be nothing?
>
> There wasn't nothing before.
>
> .
>
>
>> I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero
>> Muslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born.  It'd
>> be an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free
>> agents.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:35 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> I'm fairly sure that your last sentence is not correct.  There are
>>> approximately 1.5 billion Muslims, but there are also approximately 2
>>> billion Christians (estimates range from 1.9 to 2.2 per a quick scan
>>> of the wiki).  There are only about 14 million Mormons.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>>> I think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations of
>>>> Europe were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.
>>>> Christianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily
>>>> adaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of southern
>>>> Arizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly
>>>> henolatric (eg
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).
>>>>
>>>> Christianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is
>>>> indeed
>>>> the World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I think
>>>> of
>>>> as a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of
>>>> course)
>>>> as the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including
>>>> some
>>>> Mormons as something other.
>>>>
>>>> If you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in its
>>>> several branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.
>>>>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>> I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira
>>>>> <domus_artemis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the
>>>>>> Jesus
>>>>>> "equivalent" already happened in Urth's past. And maybe Jesus too
>>>>>> further in
>>>>>> the past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the
>>>>>> Second
>>>>>> Coming or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> kind
>>>>>> of stuff, I'm not even religious.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The Urth we are reading about
>>>>>> is much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its
>>>>>> spiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which
>>>>>> plagued our pagan ancestors."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much
>>>>>> "enlightened" now than it was at the time of our "pagan ancestors"
>>>>>> (not
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> mention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion around)? Is
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> what Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,
>>>>>> but Severian/Conciliator rings like "Jesus" (probably second comming)
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400
>>>>>>> From: brunians at brunians.org
>>>>>>> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Severian is the Conciliator.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or am I missing something?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I agree. The Conciliator was the "jesus" of Urth. And that already
>>>>>>> > happened in the past of Urth.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400
>>>>>>> >> From: eugene.zar at gmail.com
>>>>>>> >> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman
>>>>>>> <severiansola at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>> >> > FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually
>>>>>>> >> > advanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly
>>>>>>> >> > spiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,
>>>>>>> >> > Severian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about
>>>>>>> >> > is much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its
>>>>>>> >> > spiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which
>>>>>>> >> > plagued our pagan ancestors.
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> >> be very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically
>>>>>>> >> comes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.
>>>>>>> >> Severian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is
>>>>>>> apparent
>>>>>>> >> early in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in
>>>>>>> >> part, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:
>>>>>>> >> salvation.
>>>>>>> >>
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>>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>>> >> Eugene Z
>>>>>>> >> http://blog.eugenez.net
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