(urth) traveling north

Thu Jun 3 09:45:42 PDT 2010

And there would be no Christians if Moses hadn't been born.

There would be something.

Why do you think there would be nothing?

There wasn't nothing before.

.

> I'd also add, just for the sake of it, that there would be zero
> Muslims and zero Christians if Jesus Christ had never been born.  It'd
> be an interesting world with something like 3.5 billion religious free
> agents.
>
> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:35 PM, John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I'm fairly sure that your last sentence is not correct.  There are
>> approximately 1.5 billion Muslims, but there are also approximately 2
>> billion Christians (estimates range from 1.9 to 2.2 per a quick scan
>> of the wiki).  There are only about 14 million Mormons.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM,  <brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>> I think it is more accurate to say that the previous civilizations of
>>> Europe were replaced by Christianized versions of themselves.
>>> Christianity, especially Catholic Christianity is extraordinarily
>>> adaptable, and you find local religions (as among the Yaqui of southern
>>> Arizona and Sonora) that are completely Christian and also strongly
>>> henolatric (eg
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui#Yaqui_cosmology_and_religion).
>>>
>>> Christianity, if you include all of its many branches and sects, is
>>> indeed
>>> the World's largest religion. That's including the Mormons, who I think
>>> of
>>> as a third branch of Christianity, and who think of themselves (of
>>> course)
>>> as the True Church, but are thought of by many Christians including
>>> some
>>> Mormons as something other.
>>>
>>> If you exclude the Mormons (there are a lot of Mormons), Islam (in its
>>> several branches and sects) is the World's largest religion.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>> I certainly think that Europe was civilized by Christianity, yes.
>>>>
>>>> As a factual matter, Christianity is the world's largest religion.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Pedro Pereira
>>>> <domus_artemis at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Severian travelled back in time and became the Conciliator. So the
>>>>> Jesus
>>>>> "equivalent" already happened in Urth's past. And maybe Jesus too
>>>>> further in
>>>>> the past, and maybe Severian and the drowning of the World is the
>>>>> Second
>>>>> Coming or something. I don't know, I don't really know much about
>>>>> this
>>>>> kind
>>>>> of stuff, I'm not even religious.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't really know but I don't think I can agree with this:
>>>>>
>>>>> "The Urth we are reading about
>>>>> is much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its
>>>>> spiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which
>>>>> plagued our pagan ancestors."
>>>>>
>>>>> Do the believers among you really believe that Humanity is much
>>>>> "enlightened" now than it was at the time of our "pagan ancestors"
>>>>> (not
>>>>> to
>>>>> mention that Christianism isn't even the biggest religion around)? Is
>>>>> that
>>>>> what Wolfe is going for in these books? I don't know,
>>>>> but Severian/Conciliator rings like "Jesus" (probably second comming)
>>>>> to
>>>>> me.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 05:53:32 -0400
>>>>>> From: brunians at brunians.org
>>>>>> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>>>>>> Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Severian is the Conciliator.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or am I missing something?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I agree. The Conciliator was the "jesus" of Urth. And that already
>>>>>> > happened in the past of Urth.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 21:00:40 -0400
>>>>>> >> From: eugene.zar at gmail.com
>>>>>> >> To: urth at lists.urth.net
>>>>>> >> Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Lee Berman
>>>>>> <severiansola at hotmail.com>
>>>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > FWIW, my opinion is that Urth is presented as less spiritually
>>>>>> >> > advanced than Earth, notably lacking two important earthly
>>>>>> >> > spiritual events, The Flood and the Coming of Jesus. Thus,
>>>>>> >> > Severian has his roles to play. The Urth we are reading about
>>>>>> >> > is much older than our current Earth but being stunted in its
>>>>>> >> > spiritual growth is still troubled by some of the ills which
>>>>>> >> > plagued our pagan ancestors.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Wasn't the Conciliator the Jesus-like figure? Severian seemed to
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> >> be very much non-divine. Quite the opposite, he very specifically
>>>>>> >> comes from a very dark place, and rises to his status as savior.
>>>>>> >> Severian's respect for the Increate and the sun itself is
>>>>>> apparent
>>>>>> >> early in the book, so I suspect Severian's story was meant to, in
>>>>>> >> part, show where the spiritual path you claim is lacking leads:
>>>>>> >> salvation.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> > _________________________________________________________________
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>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> --
>>>>>> >> Eugene Z
>>>>>> >> http://blog.eugenez.net
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