(urth) traveling north

[Jerry Friedman]

I will tell you the directions don't exclude that possibility.

The line is, "Try to pass through it by day, with the sun over the right shoulder by morning and later in the left eye."

On the equinoxes, the sun rises due east everywhere in the world (well, not at the poles), so the sun is over your right shoulder at dawn if you're facing northwest.  On the December solstice, the sun rises at its farthest south of due east; on the June solstice, at its farthest north.  In the South Temperate and Antarctic Zones, the sun is always in the north at noon, but in the South Tropical Zone, it's in the south at noon around the December solstice, their summer solstice.  Since Severian's sun is dim, he could be in the tropics even where we think of the climate as cooler than tropical.

It's quite clear the Commonwealth is in the Southern Hemisphere: the south is cold and the north is hot.  I don't see a mistake.  The sun could easily be more or less east (over Sev's right shoulder) in the morning and more or less west (in his left eye) later.

Jerry Friedman




----- Original Message ----
From: Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Wed, June 2, 2010 5:09:59 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) traveling north

and a quick follow up (told you it was late at night, thinking things through ...)

Of course it isn't possible to travel toward the equator in *either* hemisphere with the sun at your back. So something very complicated appears to have happened to the earth's orbit, the position of the continents, or both.

Also awaiting comments from those who will probably tell me that the directions given do not in fact exclude the possibility that the sun was in Sev's face during the rest of the day. I'm sure there are other indications that Urth's north and south are not quite as we know them - but no time to go there now.

got to go!

jd

On 02/06/10 23:49, Jane Delawney wrote:
> Just a quick question (I hope) it's really late at night where I am :)
> 
> There seems to be a general assumption (unless I've read it wrong, which would not be the first time of course as some of you have already noticed :) - both Borski and Andre-Driussi appear to support the idea) that the setting of BOTNS is South America. At one point (sorry I can't be more specific without looking stuff up in detail, I don't have time right now, I'm sure one of you will know the place) it's stated outright by one of these writers that Nessus is 'almost certainly Buenos Aires'.
> 
> This would mean that as Severian & co. journey to Thrax & beyond, they are moving northward in the southern hemisphere.
> 
> However, when Severian takes directions from the pampas herdsman for his journey (directions which will lead him straight into the Stone Town of course) the herdsman instructs him to travel northwest ... 'with the sun over your right shoulder in the morning and in your left eye in the evening' or very similar phrasing.
> 
> Perfect directions for a journey north-westwards in the *northern* hemisphere.
> 
> With the current planetary orbit and polar configuration, surely it is simply not possible to travel northward in the southern hemisphere with the sun *behind* you, which is evidently what Severian is doing.
> 
> What is going on here? Many apologies if this is a topic which has been done to death in the past btw. My initial reaction is that the usage of 'north' and 'south' in Severian's world does not entirely coincide with ours, that there has been a magnetic reversal event or similar, and that for sure Severian is travelling northwards in *his* southern hemisphere ... but that this is not the same as our southern hemisphere. Perhaps the Commonwealth is North America or Eurasia after all; and Ascia, South America or Africa.
> 
> As I've mentioned on list previously I'm currently  part way through my first read of this book for fifteen years. Would be most interested to hear if there is any further information out there regarding this little puzzle (for instance, I have so far taken less notice than I might have done of any mention of the positions of stars from Severian's point of view - though there is apparently a constellation called the Cross, this could as easily refer to our Swan (Cygnus) as to the Southern Cross. Not to mention that star positions relative to Urth may not be quite the same as they are to our Earth.
> 
> got to go, goodnight and thanks for your patience if you have read this.
> 
> jd.
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