(urth) Appearances of Inire

[John Watkins]

Well, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in Christian
and Gnostic thought.  Obvious there must be *some *possible separation
between angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels wouldn't have been
possible.  It's my understanding that there are various interpretations of
what this means even in our world, and in a consciously created myth it
could mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for instance, are not in constant
communication with Illuvatar or anything like it and they make various
errors of judgment.  I don't think, however, that they ever lie or commit
acts of intentional evil, except for of course Melkor and arguably Aule on
one occasion).

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:

> #1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting "more or less" and using the
> words "infallible" and "definitely in direct contact." That would be more
> distinct.
>
> As I understand it.
>
> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>
>>  There is no meaningful difference between one and three.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Right.
>>>
>>> Although now I will say such a thing.  Tzadkiel presents himself not as
>>> the
>>> Outsider but as His agent.  Arguably the most important question of the
>>> series is whether Tzadkiel is lying.  I think there are in fact three
>>> options:
>>>
>>> 1)  Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct
>>> contact
>>> with the will of the deity.  Thus he/she is to be completely trusted and
>>> is
>>> a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.
>>> 2)  Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar.  The
>>> pretentions
>>> of religion are a means of controlling the human race.
>>> 3)  Tzadkiel is a "higher" being in some meaningful sense but remains
>>> metaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in "The Cock and
>>> the
>>> Angel."  His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is
>>> sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but
>>> like
>>> the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely removed
>>> from
>>> the mind of the Increate.
>>>
>>> I go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff
>>> <dstockhoff at verizon.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a general theoretical
>>>> observation.
>>>>
>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  Who usurping where?
>>>>>
>>>>> Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think so.
>>>>>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the concept of a
>>>>>> local archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can explain it any way
>>>>>> you want, but that's the concept.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Think Tolkien.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe for you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't buy it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> God delegates all the time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Precisely.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's that thing about only God being creator.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use
>>>>>>>>>>>> "assemble"
>>>>>>>>>>>> instead of "create"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is
>>>>>>>>>>> usurping
>>>>>>>>>>> the privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic
>>>>>>>>>>> manner.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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