Well, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in Christian and Gnostic thought. Obvious there must be <em>some </em>possible separation between angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels wouldn't have been possible. It's my understanding that there are various interpretations of what this means even in our world, and in a consciously created myth it could mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for instance, are not in constant communication with Illuvatar or anything like it and they make various errors of judgment. I don't think, however, that they ever lie or commit acts of intentional evil, except for of course Melkor and arguably Aule on one occasion).<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">#1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting "more or less" and using the words "infallible" and "definitely in direct contact." That would be more distinct.<br>
<br>As I understand it.<br><br><a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div>
<div></div>
<div class="h5">There is no meaningful difference between one and three.<br><br>.<br><br><br> <br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Right.<br><br>Although now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents himself not as<br>the<br>Outsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important question of the<br>
series is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in fact three<br>options:<br><br>1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less in direct<br>contact<br>with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be completely trusted and<br>
is<br>a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.<br>2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar. The<br>pretentions<br>of religion are a means of controlling the human race.<br>3) Tzadkiel is a "higher" being in some meaningful sense but remains<br>
metaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in "The Cock and<br>the<br>Angel." His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do its will is<br>sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best he/she can, but<br>
like<br>the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and infinitely removed<br>from<br>the mind of the Increate.<br><br>I go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.<br><br>On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff<br>
<<a href="mailto:dstockhoff@verizon.net" target="_blank">dstockhoff@verizon.net</a>>wrote:<br><br> <br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a general theoretical<br>observation.<br><br><a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a> wrote:<br>
<br> <br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"> Who usurping where?<br><br>Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider? Tzadkiel?<br><br>I don't think so.<br>
<br>.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">No, the definition of usurping demands it. So does the concept of a<br>local archon pretending to be the Outsider. You can explain it any way<br>
you want, but that's the concept.<br><br>Think Tolkien.<br><br><a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a> wrote:<br><br><br> <br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Maybe for you.<br><br>.<br><br><br><br><br><br> <br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">The question, then, is whether such delegation occurred---or not.<br><br><a href="mailto:brunians@brunians.org" target="_blank">brunians@brunians.org</a> wrote:<br>
<br><br><br> <br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">I don't buy it.<br><br>God delegates all the time.<br><br>.<br><br><br><br><br><br> <br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Precisely.<br><br>Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:<br><br><br><br><br> <br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson <<a href="mailto:jwilson@io.com" target="_blank">jwilson@io.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br><br><br><br><br><br> <br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Jeff Wilson wrote (30-06-2010 16:04):<br> <br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><br><br><br> <br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">On 6/30/2010 9:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:<br><br><br><br><br><br> <br></blockquote>There's that thing about only God being creator.<br>
<br><br><br><br><br> <br></blockquote>How is that relevant here? Do you prefer that people use<br>"assemble"<br>instead of "create"?<br><br><br><br><br><br> <br>
</blockquote>It's relevant because a race that creates a (slave) race is<br>usurping<br>the privilege of the Creator -- is in fact acting in daemonic<br>manner.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br> <br></blockquote>
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