(urth) Appearances of Inire
brunians at brunians.org
brunians at brunians.org
Thu Jul 1 06:08:35 PDT 2010
What the hell do you have in your pockets, anyway?
.
> Well argued. Extra points for use of Tolkien.
>
> Under #3, presumably, such a being might have enormous powers but feel
> just as lost as humans. Under #1, such a being might feel significantly
> more connected.
>
> One can see how a #3 being might more often go astray, even with good
> intentions, while a #1 being might get carried away with how close to
> the deity he sits and become jealous or rebellious, causing far more
> damage.
>
> John Watkins wrote:
>> Well, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in
>> Christian and Gnostic thought. Obvious there must be /some /possible
>> separation between angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels
>> wouldn't have been possible. It's my understanding that there are
>> various interpretations of what this means even in our world, and in a
>> consciously created myth it could mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for
>> instance, are not in constant communication with Illuvatar or anything
>> like it and they make various errors of judgment. I don't think,
>> however, that they ever lie or commit acts of intentional evil, except
>> for of course Melkor and arguably Aule on one occasion).
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff
>> <dstockhoff at verizon.net <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>
>> #1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting "more or less" and
>> using the words "infallible" and "definitely in direct contact."
>> That would be more distinct.
>>
>> As I understand it.
>>
>> brunians at brunians.org <mailto:brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>
>> There is no meaningful difference between one and three.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Right.
>>
>> Although now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents
>> himself not as
>> the
>> Outsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important
>> question of the
>> series is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in
>> fact three
>> options:
>>
>> 1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less
>> in direct
>> contact
>> with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be
>> completely trusted and
>> is
>> a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.
>> 2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar.
>> The
>> pretentions
>> of religion are a means of controlling the human race.
>> 3) Tzadkiel is a "higher" being in some meaningful sense
>> but remains
>> metaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in
>> "The Cock and
>> the
>> Angel." His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do
>> its will is
>> sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best
>> he/she can, but
>> like
>> the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and
>> infinitely removed
>> from
>> the mind of the Increate.
>>
>> I go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff
>> <dstockhoff at verizon.net
>> <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a
>> general theoretical
>> observation.
>>
>> brunians at brunians.org <mailto:brunians at brunians.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Who usurping where?
>>
>> Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider?
>> Tzadkiel?
>>
>> I don't think so.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> No, the definition of usurping demands it. So
>> does the concept of a
>> local archon pretending to be the Outsider.
>> You can explain it any way
>> you want, but that's the concept.
>>
>> Think Tolkien.
>>
>> brunians at brunians.org
>> <mailto:brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe for you.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The question, then, is whether such
>> delegation occurred---or not.
>>
>> brunians at brunians.org
>> <mailto:brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't buy it.
>>
>> God delegates all the time.
>>
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Precisely.
>>
>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at
>> 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson
>> <jwilson at io.com
>> <mailto:jwilson at io.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff Wilson wrote
>> (30-06-2010 16:04):
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/30/2010
>> 9:24 AM, James
>> Wynn wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There's that thing
>> about only God
>> being creator.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> How is that relevant
>> here? Do you prefer
>> that people use
>> "assemble"
>> instead of "create"?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It's relevant because a
>> race that creates a
>> (slave) race is
>> usurping
>> the privilege of the
>> Creator -- is in fact
>> acting in daemonic
>> manner.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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