(urth) Appearances of Inire
David Stockhoff
dstockhoff at verizon.net
Thu Jul 1 05:53:41 PDT 2010
Well argued. Extra points for use of Tolkien.
Under #3, presumably, such a being might have enormous powers but feel
just as lost as humans. Under #1, such a being might feel significantly
more connected.
One can see how a #3 being might more often go astray, even with good
intentions, while a #1 being might get carried away with how close to
the deity he sits and become jealous or rebellious, causing far more damage.
John Watkins wrote:
> Well, I didn't want to get into various schools of angelology in
> Christian and Gnostic thought. Obvious there must be /some /possible
> separation between angelic will and divine will, or fallen angels
> wouldn't have been possible. It's my understanding that there are
> various interpretations of what this means even in our world, and in a
> consciously created myth it could mean anything (Tolkien's Valar, for
> instance, are not in constant communication with Illuvatar or anything
> like it and they make various errors of judgment. I don't think,
> however, that they ever lie or commit acts of intentional evil, except
> for of course Melkor and arguably Aule on one occasion).
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Stockhoff
> <dstockhoff at verizon.net <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>> wrote:
>
> #1 could be phrased more strongly, deleting "more or less" and
> using the words "infallible" and "definitely in direct contact."
> That would be more distinct.
>
> As I understand it.
>
> brunians at brunians.org <mailto:brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>
> There is no meaningful difference between one and three.
>
> .
>
>
>
>
> Right.
>
> Although now I will say such a thing. Tzadkiel presents
> himself not as
> the
> Outsider but as His agent. Arguably the most important
> question of the
> series is whether Tzadkiel is lying. I think there are in
> fact three
> options:
>
> 1) Tzadkiel is, like a Christian archangel, more or less
> in direct
> contact
> with the will of the deity. Thus he/she is to be
> completely trusted and
> is
> a more or less incontrovertible moral authority.
> 2) Tzadkiel is a creepy insectoid alien thing and a liar.
> The
> pretentions
> of religion are a means of controlling the human race.
> 3) Tzadkiel is a "higher" being in some meaningful sense
> but remains
> metaphysically removed from the divine, like the angel in
> "The Cock and
> the
> Angel." His/her belief in the Increate and desire to do
> its will is
> sincere, and to that end he/she is just doing the best
> he/she can, but
> like
> the angel in the story Tzadkiel remains fallible and
> infinitely removed
> from
> the mind of the Increate.
>
> I go back and forth between 2) and 3) myself.
>
> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:01 AM, David Stockhoff
> <dstockhoff at verizon.net <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>>wrote:
>
>
>
> No one said anyone was pretending anything. It was a
> general theoretical
> observation.
>
> brunians at brunians.org <mailto:brunians at brunians.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Who usurping where?
>
> Which archon is pretending to be the Outsider?
> Tzadkiel?
>
> I don't think so.
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> No, the definition of usurping demands it. So
> does the concept of a
> local archon pretending to be the Outsider.
> You can explain it any way
> you want, but that's the concept.
>
> Think Tolkien.
>
> brunians at brunians.org
> <mailto:brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Maybe for you.
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The question, then, is whether such
> delegation occurred---or not.
>
> brunians at brunians.org
> <mailto:brunians at brunians.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't buy it.
>
> God delegates all the time.
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Precisely.
>
> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at
> 11:28 AM, Jeff Wilson
> <jwilson at io.com
> <mailto:jwilson at io.com>>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jeff Wilson wrote
> (30-06-2010 16:04):
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/30/2010
> 9:24 AM, James
> Wynn wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> There's that thing
> about only God
> being creator.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> How is that relevant
> here? Do you prefer
> that people use
> "assemble"
> instead of "create"?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It's relevant because a
> race that creates a
> (slave) race is
> usurping
> the privilege of the
> Creator -- is in fact
> acting in daemonic
> manner.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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