(urth) Severian's Family. What the text shows...

[Son of Witz]

Ooh, better and better!

Thanks Ryan.
I forgot to deal with Ouen.
(I'm not trying to prove a theory, just climbing out on a branch to see if it will hold.)

So James, are you mapping Ouen to Fish, as an anti-poleric brother to Severian?
That is interesting, though there is an age difference that keeps them from being twins as Fish and Frog are. Ouen is balding, and describes his twenties, when he got the locket, as in the past, yet Severian is only about twenty.  I had assumed Ouen was his Father of course, too, but somehow it always felt a bit flat to me.  (we need an aesthetic blowback icon) 

Of course, if tying Ouen to Fish one would want to make sense of the slaying of fish and founding of the wall. Is this just a conflation with Romulus and Remus?  Would it be possible to say that Severian's reign is built somewhat on this foundation of having Ouen caring for Dorcas in the Oldgate Quarter? It is the first thing he does when he has returned and claimed the throne.


On Dec 22, 2010, at 9:25 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
>> 
>> Ryan Dunn-
>> I know some of you are all, "So what?" about Severian's family tree, but I happen to find it important to understanding some of the underpinnings and mysteries of Severian, if we are still only scratching the surface.
>> 
>> Here are some things I wanted to get off of my chest, as I am seeing some renewed questions as to whether some of the family tree speculation is/was accurate...
> 
> Thanks, Ryan.  My only problem with this is the conflating of what the text says and presumptions about what the text means.
> 
>> 
>> CAS = DORCAS + SEVERIAN'S GRANDMOTHER
>> [snip]
>> I know someone mentioned Casdoe in some other discussion, but I wanted to put this one to bed at least. Knowing that Cas = Dorcas also proves that the boatman at the botanic was indeed Ouens father, and Dorcas's husband. Without a doubt. And based on the information to follow, Dorcas is also Ouen's mother, and since the text implies that Ouen is Severian's father, then Dorcas is also Severian's grandmother.
>> 
> 
> Right. I don't think this information is in dispute. Connecting Dorcas as Severian's grandmother in the normal way (as opposed to the skewed Marble/Rose/Mucor way) is dependent on Ouen being Sev's father in the normal. However, this text is an acknowledged complication for those who say the boatman _is_ Inire.
> 
>> 
>> OUEN = SEVERIAN'S FATHER
>> [snip]
>> Common logic deduces this passage to indicate Ouen is Severian's father. It is possible, I suppose, to argue Ouen may be his son, if Severian exists in some older time-traveling twin of himself, though the Catherine commentary hereafter implies Severian's curiosity with those in and around the Inn of Lost Loves have to do with discovering his parents and grandparents.
>> 
>> I'm sticking to what I can read here, and I read an innkeep remarking that Ouen looks like an older version of Severian (hair and eye coloring aside). I also see the remark that Ouen may look a bit like Dorcas. If this is true and not  totally inaccurate, then Severian bears a passing resemblance to Dorcas as well, further tying him into her bloodline.
>> 
> 
> I think you are acknowledging that the text doesn't confirm that Ouen is Severian's father. That Ouen is Severian's father is a theory to explain it. "Common logic" doesn't deduce anything. You are offering a theory that overlays the data. But we know from other examples that there are different kinds of "fathers" in Wolfe's works. And unfortunately deciding that Ouen is Sevs "father" and Dorcas is his "grandmother" hasn't resolved all the open questions about his ancestry or lineage.  But I agree that if Ouen and Severian are connected by bloodline. And if Ouen and Severian are connected then Severian and Dorcas are connected. But I doubt HOW     they are connected.
> 
> 
>> 
>> CATHERINE = OUEN'S LOVER + SEVERIAN'S MOTHER
>> [snip]
>> So, presuming Ouen is Severian's father, and presuming he slept with this woman named Catherine (who found herself in trouble before running off with "some order of monials" (Pelerines?) and ending up "gotten" by the law).
> 
> Yes "presuming" and "presuming". Severian says " A woman you loved—or perhaps only one who loved you...?'" That leaves open a wide door to the actual nature of their relationship. It doesn't even presuppose they ever had sex. And her background is terribly shrouded in mystery.
> 
> I don't know exactly what went on here. But Wolfe is capable of carefully explaining things when he wants to. So I don't believe the solution is to garnered from "common logic" in this case.
> 
>> She was dark haired, and we have a nice passage about what happens to pregnant women who bear children while imprisoned at Matachin Tower...
>> 
>> "Since that time our numbers have been repaired solely from the children of those who fall into our hands.             In our Matachin Tower, a certain bar of iron thrusts from a bulkhead at the height of a man's groin. Male children small enough to stand upright beneath it are nurtured as our own; and when a woman big with child is sent to us we open her and if the babe draws breath engage a wet-nurse if it be a boy. The females are rendered to the witches."
>> 
>> Furthermore, we have to assume this woman was pregnant and had a child, strictly based on Severian's line of questioning. His "How interesting," line is especially pointed in this regard, as though he knows more about Ouen's past than Ouen himself. Isn't it worth noting that Severian, whether through the acquisition of the memories of his forebears, or simply doing some Columbo work off-screen, has now taken an authoratative stance on a matter that puzzled him when he first encountered it back at Sanguinary Field?
>> 
>> One question I've had is... should we have been as privy to Ouen's past as well? Is there something in the text right there before our eyes asking to be connected to Catherine and Ouen and Dorcas?
>> 
> 
> I think the mysterious Catherine was pregnant and had a child...probably two. I'm not convinced she had them in the Matachin tower. No more than Able was born in that cave at the beginning of The Knight even though a goddess of childbirth is standing over him when he awakes without previous memory. I think Severian knows the answer by the time he meets Ouen. But he's not telling. Yeah, we should know more about Ouen. But we should definitely know more about Catherine. I really expected Severian to meet her in tUotNS.
> 
> u+16b9
> 
>> . .
>> 
>> ...ryan
>> 
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> 
> Ryan, note what Severian says:
> 
> "A woman you loved—or perhaps only one who loved you.."
> 
> There's a lot of ways to read that. It opens a very wide door as the level of intimacy in Ouen and Catherine's relationship. It is quite possible they never had sex. In fact, do we know that the monials would have taken her back if she had?
> 
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