<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Ooh, better and better!</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks Ryan.</div><div>I forgot to deal with Ouen.</div><div>(I'm not trying to prove a theory, just climbing out on a branch to see if it will hold.)</div><div><br></div><div>So James, are you mapping Ouen to Fish, as an anti-poleric brother to Severian?</div><div>That is interesting, though there is an age difference that keeps them from being twins as Fish and Frog are. Ouen is balding, and describes his twenties, when he got the locket, as in the past, yet Severian is only about <span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">twenty. I had assumed Ouen was his Father of course, too, but somehow it always felt a bit flat to me. (we need an aesthetic blowback icon) </span></div><div><br></div><div>Of course, if tying Ouen to Fish one would want to make sense of the slaying of fish and founding of the wall. Is this just a conflation with Romulus and Remus? Would it be possible to say that Severian's reign is built somewhat on this foundation of having Ouen caring for Dorcas in the Oldgate Quarter? It is the first thing he does when he has returned and claimed the throne.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On Dec 22, 2010, at 9:25 AM, James Wynn <<a href="mailto:crushtv@gmail.com">crushtv@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BC0652B2-AA45-4AA8-9B96-DCF58B121710@liftingfaces.com" type="cite"><u>
<div><br>
</div>
</u>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica;">Ryan Dunn-<br>
I know some of you are all, "So what?" about Severian's
family tree, but I happen to find it important to
understanding some of the underpinnings and mysteries of
Severian, if we are still only scratching the surface.</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica;">Here are some
things I wanted to get off of my chest, as I am seeing some
renewed questions as to whether some of the family tree
speculation is/was accurate...</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Thanks, Ryan. My only problem with this is the conflating of what
the text says and presumptions about what the text means.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BC0652B2-AA45-4AA8-9B96-DCF58B121710@liftingfaces.com" type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">CAS = DORCAS +
SEVERIAN'S GRANDMOTHER<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;">[snip]<br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#e00f0f">I know someone
mentioned Casdoe in some other discussion, but I wanted to
put this one to bed at least. Knowing that Cas = Dorcas
also proves that the boatman at the botanic was indeed
Ouens father, and Dorcas's husband. Without a doubt. And
based on the information to follow, Dorcas is also Ouen's
mother, and since the text implies that Ouen is Severian's
father, then Dorcas is also Severian's grandmother.</font></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Right. I don't think this information is in dispute. Connecting
Dorcas as Severian's grandmother in the normal way (as opposed to
the skewed Marble/Rose/Mucor way) is dependent on Ouen being Sev's
father in the normal. However, this text is an acknowledged
complication for those who say the boatman _is_ Inire.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BC0652B2-AA45-4AA8-9B96-DCF58B121710@liftingfaces.com" type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">OUEN =
SEVERIAN'S FATHER</span><br>
[snip]</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#e00f0f">Common logic
deduces this passage to indicate Ouen is Severian's
father. It is possible, I suppose, to argue Ouen may be
his son, if Severian exists in some older time-traveling
twin of himself, though the Catherine commentary hereafter
implies Severian's curiosity with those in and around the
Inn of Lost Loves have to do with discovering his parents
and grandparents.</font></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#e00f0f"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#e00f0f">I'm sticking to
what I can read here, and I read an innkeep remarking that
Ouen looks like an older version of Severian (hair and eye
coloring aside). I also see the remark that Ouen may look
a bit like Dorcas. If this is true and not totally
inaccurate, then Severian bears a passing resemblance to
Dorcas as well, further tying him into her bloodline.</font></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I think you are acknowledging that the text doesn't confirm that
Ouen is Severian's father. That Ouen is Severian's father is a
theory to explain it. "Common logic" doesn't deduce anything. You
are offering a theory that overlays the data. But we know from other
examples that there are different kinds of "fathers" in Wolfe's
works. And unfortunately deciding that Ouen is Sevs "father" and
Dorcas is his "grandmother" hasn't resolved all the open questions
about his ancestry or lineage. But I agree that if Ouen and
Severian are connected by bloodline. And if Ouen and Severian are
connected then Severian and Dorcas are connected. But I doubt HOW
they are connected.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BC0652B2-AA45-4AA8-9B96-DCF58B121710@liftingfaces.com" type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">CATHERINE = OUEN'S
LOVER + SEVERIAN'S MOTHER</span></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica;">[snip]<br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#e00f0f">So,
presuming Ouen is Severian's father, and presuming he
slept with this woman named Catherine (who found herself
in trouble before running off with "some order of monials"
(Pelerines?) and ending up "gotten" by the law). </font></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes "presuming" and "presuming". Severian says " A woman you
loved—or perhaps only one who loved you...?'" That leaves open a
wide door to the actual nature of their relationship. It doesn't
even presuppose they ever had sex. And her background is terribly
shrouded in mystery.<br>
<br>
I don't know exactly what went on here. But Wolfe is capable of
carefully explaining things when he wants to. So I don't believe the
solution is to garnered from "common logic" in this case.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BC0652B2-AA45-4AA8-9B96-DCF58B121710@liftingfaces.com" type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#e00f0f">She
was dark haired, and we have a nice passage about what
happens to pregnant women who bear children while
imprisoned at Matachin Tower...</font></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#e00f0f"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;">"Since that time our numbers have been repaired
solely from the children of those who fall into our hands.
In our Matachin Tower, a certain bar of iron thrusts from
a bulkhead at the height of a man's groin. Male children
small enough to stand upright beneath it are nurtured as our
own; and when a woman big with child is sent to us we open
her and if the babe draws breath engage a wet-nurse if it be
a boy. The females are rendered to the witches."</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#e00f0f"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#e00f0f">Furthermore,
we have to assume this woman was pregnant and had a child,
strictly based on Severian's line of questioning. His "How
interesting," line is especially pointed in this regard,
as though he knows more about Ouen's past than Ouen
himself. Isn't it worth noting that Severian, whether
through the acquisition of the memories of his forebears,
or simply doing some Columbo work off-screen, has now
taken an authoratative stance on a matter that puzzled him
when he first encountered it back at Sanguinary Field?</font></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#e00f0f"><br>
</font></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#e00f0f">One
question I've had is... should we have been as privy to
Ouen's past as well? Is there something in the text right
there before our eyes asking to be connected to Catherine
and Ouen and Dorcas?</font></div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I think the mysterious Catherine was pregnant and had a
child...probably two. I'm not convinced she had them in the Matachin
tower. No more than Able was born in that cave at the beginning of
The Knight even though a goddess of childbirth is standing over him
when he awakes without previous memory. I think Severian knows the
answer by the time he meets Ouen. But he's not telling. Yeah, we
should know more about Ouen. But we should definitely know more
about Catherine. I really expected Severian to meet her in tUotNS.<br>
<br>
u+16b9<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:BC0652B2-AA45-4AA8-9B96-DCF58B121710@liftingfaces.com" type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;">. .</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica; min-height:
14px;"><br>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0px; font: 12px Helvetica;">...ryan</div>
</div>
</div>
<pre wrap=""><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
Urth Mailing List
To post, write <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:urth@urth.net"><a href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a></a>
Subscription/information: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.urth.net"><a href="http://www.urth.net">http://www.urth.net</a></a></pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Ryan, note what Severian says:<br>
<br>
"A woman you loved—or perhaps only one who loved you.."<br>
<br>
There's a lot of ways to read that. It opens a very wide door as the
level of intimacy in Ouen and Catherine's relationship. It is quite
possible they never had sex. In fact, do we know that the monials
would have taken her back if she had?<br>
<br>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Urth Mailing List</span><br><span>To post, write <a href="mailto:urth@urth.net"><a href="mailto:urth@urth.net">urth@urth.net</a></a></span><br><span>Subscription/information: <a href="http://www.urth.net"><a href="http://www.urth.net">http://www.urth.net</a></a></span></div></blockquote></body></html>