(urth) (no subject)

Wed Dec 15 17:09:18 PST 2010

Yes Craig, but wouldn't you agree that any cosmology can be called "speculative fiction?"
It seems appropriate to me, even though I don't want to demean anyone's revelation.

On Dec 15, 2010, at 4:30 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Understood.
> 
> I'm just always wary of how much to think of the speculative stuff as actual 
> cosmology in Wolfe. So many questions arise: which books are then cosmological 
> and which are just done for the sake of genre? Why would BotNS be concerned with 
> his real beliefs rather than, say, Wizard Knight or There Are Doors? Which are 
> more non-fictional than others, etc.?
> 
> I like phrasing it as "working out potential ramifications" of beliefs much 
> better than "cosmology-building." Otherwise, it just seems too easy to say, "I 
> would like it if someone actually believed what Wolfe is saying here...so I'm 
> going to say that he means that part FER REELZ!"
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Sent: Wed, December 15, 2010 6:15:36 PM
> Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject)
> 
> 
> 
> No, I am not saying that BotNS is not fiction. Not at all.
> I'm saying that I think Wolfe mashed up a lot of his beliefs which might seem to 
> a simpler mind to be incompatible, and he inserted a Christ-like redeemer into 
> it.  I'm saying that the metaphors probably DO go far to explain Wolfe's 
> feelings about the universe though, but it is all done within a fictional 
> metaphor.  I don't think he is doing it lightly, or simply mashing ideas for the 
> heck of it though.
> 
> On Dec 15, 2010, at 4:03 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> So, Witz, are you saying that, fundamentally, you don't think that BotNS is 
>> fiction? I mean, sure the story's made up, but are you saying that you find 
>> BotNS to actually be a working-out of an actual theory-of-the-world/cosmos?
>> 
>> I ask because that seems to be a point that comes up among fans of Wolfe a lot 
> 
>> of times. (Hi, there, brunians, if you're still listening.) It seems like 
>> there's definitely a tendency among some Wolfe readers to see him working out a 
>> 
>> *real* cosmology at some level rather than just writing speculative fiction. 
>> (Maybe David's PKD/Valis reference was prescient on this point, speaking of a 
>> dude who believed his own sci-f...uh...SF. heh) It's just very different from 
>> how I read him: writing speculative fictions that play with different, even 
>> contradictory ideas, rather than developing a consistent cosmology.
>> 
>> I would be curious if you could find that interview quote. I recall a number of 
>> 
>> times where Wolfe has mentioned in interviews that the world is stranger than 
>> we 
>> 
>> might think, but I haven't actually seen a place where he crosses the line of 
>> saying "this aspect of 'genre' writing/thinking is just plain realism." It 
>> usually seems to me that he's much more cagey about such issues in a way that 
>> leaves possibilities open rather than explicitly stating his belief in a set of 
>> 
>> particular ideas. (Even in interviews where he talks about his religion, he'll 
> 
>> say things like "I'm Catholic, but that may not mean what you think it 
> means.")
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
>> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
>> Sent: Wed, December 15, 2010 5:44:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Why create a fictional universe if it is fundamentally the same as our own?
>> Well, are you sure that our universe is cyclically recreated in the same 
>> pattern 
>> 
>> again and again?
>> Are you sure that we shaped a race of beings that in turn shapes us?
>> I'm not sure, but I think it's probably true.
>> 
>> Anyway, I don't have the quote, but somewhere Wolfe said something to the idea 
> 
>> that he wrote New Sun to explore the ramifications of his beliefs.
>> Personally, I think he attempted to reconcile his convert-Catholic belief in 
>> Christ with his beliefs in other worlds, ideas about cyclicality of reality and 
>> 
>> temporal causality, belief in powers higher than humanity, his revolt against 
>> the modern world, and perhaps a belief that extra terrestrials helped shape 
>> humanity, along with a hope that our fallen creation can be saved, even if it 
>> means another flood to wipe out corrupt humanity.  Just guessing, but that 
>> seems 
>> 
>> very much like what he's given us.
>> ~Witz
>> 
>> On Dec 15, 2010, at 3:23 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Yes, exactly. I meant "sci-fi," with the scare quotes.
>>> 
>>> Do you prefer "sf"?
>>> 
>>> The question is the same. Why create a "cyclical iterations of the same 
>>> creation that keeps playing out in more or less the same pattern" fictional 
>>> universe if it's fundamentally the same as ours?
>>> 
>>> On 12/15/2010 4:50 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 1:46 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net 
>>>> <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  I mean "similar," i.e., identical except for key differences. That
>>>>  is, in the usual sci-fi sense that most people understand.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> H'mmm. Well, I would have said that the usual science-fictional sense of 
>>>> "parallel universes" includes the idea that they are in some sense moving along 
>>>> 
>>>> in time next to ours. The "mirror universe" in Star Trek is a classic 
>> example.
>>>> 
>>>> Also, please refrain (note that I am asking politely) from using the term 
>>>> "sci-fi." Some find it very offensive.
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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