(urth) (no subject)

Craig Brewer cnbrewer at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 15 16:30:20 PST 2010 

Understood.

I'm just always wary of how much to think of the speculative stuff as actual 
cosmology in Wolfe. So many questions arise: which books are then cosmological 
and which are just done for the sake of genre? Why would BotNS be concerned with 
his real beliefs rather than, say, Wizard Knight or There Are Doors? Which are 
more non-fictional than others, etc.?

I like phrasing it as "working out potential ramifications" of beliefs much 
better than "cosmology-building." Otherwise, it just seems too easy to say, "I 
would like it if someone actually believed what Wolfe is saying here...so I'm 
going to say that he means that part FER REELZ!"



----- Original Message ----
From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Wed, December 15, 2010 6:15:36 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject)



No, I am not saying that BotNS is not fiction. Not at all.
I'm saying that I think Wolfe mashed up a lot of his beliefs which might seem to 
a simpler mind to be incompatible, and he inserted a Christ-like redeemer into 
it.  I'm saying that the metaphors probably DO go far to explain Wolfe's 
feelings about the universe though, but it is all done within a fictional 
metaphor.  I don't think he is doing it lightly, or simply mashing ideas for the 
heck of it though.

On Dec 15, 2010, at 4:03 PM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:

> So, Witz, are you saying that, fundamentally, you don't think that BotNS is 
> fiction? I mean, sure the story's made up, but are you saying that you find 
> BotNS to actually be a working-out of an actual theory-of-the-world/cosmos?
> 
> I ask because that seems to be a point that comes up among fans of Wolfe a lot 

> of times. (Hi, there, brunians, if you're still listening.) It seems like 
> there's definitely a tendency among some Wolfe readers to see him working out a 
>
> *real* cosmology at some level rather than just writing speculative fiction. 
> (Maybe David's PKD/Valis reference was prescient on this point, speaking of a 
> dude who believed his own sci-f...uh...SF. heh) It's just very different from 
> how I read him: writing speculative fictions that play with different, even 
> contradictory ideas, rather than developing a consistent cosmology.
> 
> I would be curious if you could find that interview quote. I recall a number of 
>
> times where Wolfe has mentioned in interviews that the world is stranger than 
>we 
>
> might think, but I haven't actually seen a place where he crosses the line of 
> saying "this aspect of 'genre' writing/thinking is just plain realism." It 
> usually seems to me that he's much more cagey about such issues in a way that 
> leaves possibilities open rather than explicitly stating his belief in a set of 
>
> particular ideas. (Even in interviews where he talks about his religion, he'll 

> say things like "I'm Catholic, but that may not mean what you think it 
means.")
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Son of Witz <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
> Sent: Wed, December 15, 2010 5:44:19 PM
> Subject: Re: (urth) (no subject)
> 
> 
> 
> Why create a fictional universe if it is fundamentally the same as our own?
> Well, are you sure that our universe is cyclically recreated in the same 
>pattern 
>
> again and again?
> Are you sure that we shaped a race of beings that in turn shapes us?
> I'm not sure, but I think it's probably true.
> 
> Anyway, I don't have the quote, but somewhere Wolfe said something to the idea 

> that he wrote New Sun to explore the ramifications of his beliefs.
> Personally, I think he attempted to reconcile his convert-Catholic belief in 
> Christ with his beliefs in other worlds, ideas about cyclicality of reality and 
>
> temporal causality, belief in powers higher than humanity, his revolt against 
> the modern world, and perhaps a belief that extra terrestrials helped shape 
> humanity, along with a hope that our fallen creation can be saved, even if it 
> means another flood to wipe out corrupt humanity.  Just guessing, but that 
>seems 
>
> very much like what he's given us.
> ~Witz
> 
> On Dec 15, 2010, at 3:23 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:
> 
>> Yes, exactly. I meant "sci-fi," with the scare quotes.
>> 
>> Do you prefer "sf"?
>> 
>> The question is the same. Why create a "cyclical iterations of the same 
>> creation that keeps playing out in more or less the same pattern" fictional 
>> universe if it's fundamentally the same as ours?
>> 
>> On 12/15/2010 4:50 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 1:46 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net 
>>> <mailto:dstockhoff at verizon.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>   I mean "similar," i.e., identical except for key differences. That
>>>   is, in the usual sci-fi sense that most people understand.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> H'mmm. Well, I would have said that the usual science-fictional sense of 
>>> "parallel universes" includes the idea that they are in some sense moving along 
>>>
>>> in time next to ours. The "mirror universe" in Star Trek is a classic 
>example.
>>> 
>>> Also, please refrain (note that I am asking politely) from using the term 
>>> "sci-fi." Some find it very offensive.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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